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TOV Forums > General Talk > > Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos

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JonBoy
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Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 17:35
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The front axle appears to be pushed forward but the front overhang appears to be (at worst) the same or possibly even a little less than the current TLX.

In short, it looks to me like they needed a longer engine bay. That could mean a longitudinal engine layout.

Potentially, they could be using a TT V6 and they need more room for plumbing as well.

silverTL61
Profile for silverTL61
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 18:43
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Odd that they're using what appears to be the A-spec front bumper, but the 4-cyl rear bumper? Why not use the V6 or Aspec rear bumpers which already have the exhaust cutouts?

Unless they're using a completely different front bumper, and decided to experiment on the cheapest model possible to keep expenses in check :D

silverTL61
Profile for silverTL61
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 18:54
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Civicb18 wrote:
Modified Accord platform? The current Accordís platform architecture canít accept a V6 or SH-AWD. The Precision architecture of which a variation is used under the 2019 RDX can accept a V6 and SH-AWD. It shares nothing with the Honda architecture, thatís been said. Iím not sure why you canít digest that.


To be fair, they did modify the CR-V's platform to achieve what they needed for the RDX. So it wouldn't be a complete stretch if they repeated that with the Accord/Civic/TLX.

That is, unless they really do give us a "Precision architecture" that's designed from scratch and shared between RLX/TLX/MDX. Doesn't seem like any part of it was used for the RDX though, given that the press release and other reviewed don't mention it.

RolledaNsx
Profile for RolledaNsx
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 19:04
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So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).

Hondatalover
Profile for Hondatalover
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 19:57
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RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).



So the RDX, MDX and RLX will keep the basic traverse FWD layout with *maybe* a F1 style V6 and likely eSH-AWD in the back while growing a bigger nose, again, sideways weight over the front axle and *maybe* a better dash-axle ratio but not exactly anything dramatic.
( Mazda Ford Hyundai axle-dash ratio)

Mean while the entry and mid level sedans are left to get what? A new one-off and expensive longitudinal "Precision architecture" or just another "Acura exclusive platform" version of the existing modular Accord/Civic transverse platforms?

If they are going to do anything transverse I figured the RLX and MDX would be first to bring it out with the TLX coming after. Unless for the RLX they just want absolute interior volume to beat a 7 series with, I don't see why they would keep it a transverse FWD biased piggy it is now. And if that is the case I don't see how making the TLX longitudinal would be justifiable. It's already smaller, never mind that it would likely be Hondas only car to use that kind of layout so it would be way to expensive.


If rolled is right then we all know not to expect anything longitudinal.

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 20:35
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RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.

TurkMan71
Profile for TurkMan71
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 22:11
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Whatever they do, they need to hurry up and do it.
Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-12-2018 22:41
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Midi_Amp wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.


I would be more than happy with Volvo like proportions as well especially if the can move things around to make it happen. It was pointed out by some though that Volvo uses 4 cylinder so its easier to package. I just hope they don't over complicate things for the sake of it.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 00:19
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I want an Alfa like inline 8 with the power taken off the middle of the engine, between the 4th and 5th cylinders.

Things have become so boring nowadays.

TonyEX
Profile for TonyEX
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 00:25
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TonyEX wrote:
I want an Alfa like inline 8 with the power taken off the middle of the engine, between the 4th and 5th cylinders.

Things have become so boring nowadays.



lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 02:32
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Civicb18 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
This is just a power-train mule but there is some questions.

1)Why a longer front sub-frame?
The TLX already has a transverse 60 degree V6 so shouldn't need a longer front sub-frame unless the new DOHC V6 is a wide angle V.A V6TT doesn't work in a transverse layout unless you put the turbos in the V and that would call for a wide V.

The other reason for a longer front sub-frame is that the engine is in long. layout(do not think Honda will go this route).

Also a 3.0L V6 Turbo will have to much power for FWD so it will either be RWD or AWD only.In AWD it will have to be RWD bias system(larger rear Diff.).



The patents that showed the new V6 were not a 'hot V' design - their baffles air box would be irrelevant. A 'hot V' is more fashionable, though.

Moving the V behind the axle line makes M-SHAWD difficult to achieve (you need a PTO for the rear diff one side of the tranny and the front diff the other). One would also expect the front axle to move well forward due to the width of the crankcase. So I believe that layout to be unlikely, especially as it makes servicing the rear bank a bit awkward.

I agree a return to the Vigor layout seems unlikely - I would expect only one Acura plank to be shared by almost all its cars. Since the RDX is a more cab-forward CUV, the longer kick panel is less noticeable.

I therefore suspect they have done an RDX and moved the whole lot forward, away from the toe board. This means the engine bay will need re-packaging and batteries and air boxes and stuff will have to move to behind the engine. It may also be required to package the turbo and provide more air flow. I believe Mazda uses the space there for very long intake tracts on its Skyactiv cars with a similar axle-dash ratio.


All that trouble, cost, and re engineering just to not to do a properly balanced competitive premium RWD platform that would easily solve their issues.

It is hard to believe they may actually dump a lot of money into a modified Accord platform for the new Acura sedan/tt setup and it is still going to be compromised FWD/trans setup found in family sedans that will be pointed out in every single review.



Modified Accord platform? The current Accordís platform architecture canít accept a V6 or SH-AWD. The Precision architecture of which a variation is used under the 2019 RDX can accept a V6 and SH-AWD. It shares nothing with the Honda architecture, thatís been said. Iím not sure why you canít digest that.



It is another compromised fwd trans family sedan platform just like previous compromised fwd trans family sedan platforms Acura used that could accept a V6 and awd, it does share with Honda architecture.

Just because the new Accord platform is shared with the civic and it can't in its current form can not accept a 6 cylinder does not mean the new RDX is suddenly some new totally unique premium platform that shares nothing with Honda or is finally a premium uncompromising platform, it is not.

The RLX was no longer on the current at the time Accord platform that may not have been able to accept E Shawd but it was still on the previous compromised Accord platform and it was not on a competitive premium platform, it was a last place failure too because it was just on a compromised platform.

The compromised platform and its inadequacies to proper RWD platforms won't mean much on a entry level CUV but it will on sedans, especially if they actually still put the RLX on another compromised FWD transverse platform after it failing so bad this past time.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 02:45
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bnilhome wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
This is just a power-train mule but there is some questions.

1)Why a longer front sub-frame?
The TLX already has a transverse 60 degree V6 so shouldn't need a longer front sub-frame unless the new DOHC V6 is a wide angle V.A V6TT doesn't work in a transverse layout unless you put the turbos in the V and that would call for a wide V.

The other reason for a longer front sub-frame is that the engine is in long. layout(do not think Honda will go this route).

Also a 3.0L V6 Turbo will have to much power for FWD so it will either be RWD or AWD only.In AWD it will have to be RWD bias system(larger rear Diff.).



The patents that showed the new V6 were not a 'hot V' design - their baffles air box would be irrelevant. A 'hot V' is more fashionable, though.

Moving the V behind the axle line makes M-SHAWD difficult to achieve (you need a PTO for the rear diff one side of the tranny and the front diff the other). One would also expect the front axle to move well forward due to the width of the crankcase. So I believe that layout to be unlikely, especially as it makes servicing the rear bank a bit awkward.

I agree a return to the Vigor layout seems unlikely - I would expect only one Acura plank to be shared by almost all its cars. Since the RDX is a more cab-forward CUV, the longer kick panel is less noticeable.

I therefore suspect they have done an RDX and moved the whole lot forward, away from the toe board. This means the engine bay will need re-packaging and batteries and air boxes and stuff will have to move to behind the engine. It may also be required to package the turbo and provide more air flow. I believe Mazda uses the space there for very long intake tracts on its Skyactiv cars with a similar axle-dash ratio.


All that trouble, cost, and re engineering just to not to do a properly balanced competitive premium RWD platform that would easily solve their issues.

It is hard to believe they may actually dump a lot of money into a modified Accord platform for the new Acura sedan/tt setup and it is still going to be compromised FWD/trans setup found in family sedans that will be pointed out in every single review.



Modified Accord platform? The current Accordís platform architecture canít accept a V6 or SH-AWD. The Precision architecture of which a variation is used under the 2019 RDX can accept a V6 and SH-AWD. It shares nothing with the Honda architecture, thatís been said. Iím not sure why you canít digest that.



Good points Civic. There are some on here (especially those infatuated with Genesis right now) that believe the only way to make good luxury performance cars is to have RWD, V8s and a primary focus on sedans, while the market and industry are focused on crossovers, performance through AWD, and twin turbo 4 and 6 cylinder engines.



Do you like just making stuff up. Please explain how the luxury market is focused on FWD trans sedans with AWD? Please name these performance oriented FWD family sedan based cars with AWD that are big sellers?

Most of the competition is RWD with AWD available, there is a huge difference between a sedan based on a balanced RWD platform with AWD mainly for some added traction over a sedan based on a compromised FWD family sedan platform that needs awd as a bandaid/crutch to try to overcome its compromises.

We are not talking about CUV's on this topic, we are talking about a TLX test mule, still I believe BMW, Audi, Lexus and Mercedes, the most successful sellers, still have more sedans/coupes then SUV's and most of their car lineup are based on premium RWD or long FWD platforms, only Lexus has the ES that is based on a FWD trans platform and it does not even have awd.

Pretty much all the 4 cylinders on the market are single turbo, tt 6 cylinders have replaced most NA 6 cylinders and in a few cases 8 cylinder but most companies still offer 8 cylinders along with 10 or 12 cylinders in some cases.

Another needless attack on Genesis, check the G80 sales against the RLX this month and the G70(which is getting good reviews) and other Genesis vehicles are on their way

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 03:00
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RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).



So they again have learned absolutely nothing especially from the RLX failure and will continue on with "smart luxury" cost cut Honda tied compromised fwd trans failures instead of really trying to compete. This will also mean no coupes/performance 2 doors in the future either because nobody is going to buy a 2 door from a luxury brand that is based on a compromised fwd trans platform. This will likely lead to many enthusiasts just giving up on the brand now and they will only be a cuv company, we kept hearing the improved competitive products are coming, just wait, some knew better, and it is becoming more apparent they are again just going to give us the same thing after all the talk and no action.

Even today Honda's basic idea of a top line flagship luxury sedan for Acura is basically just a awd/hybrid Avalon.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 03:05
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RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


So they again have learned absolutely nothing especially from the RLX failure and will continue on with "smart luxury" cost cut Honda tied compromised fwd trans failures instead of really trying to compete. This will also mean no coupes/performance 2 doors in the future either because nobody is going to buy a 2 door from a luxury brand that is based on a compromised fwd trans platform. This will likely lead to many enthusiasts just giving up on the brand now and they will only be a cuv company, we kept hearing the improved competitive products are coming, just wait, some knew better, and it is becoming more apparent they are again just going to give us the same thing after all the talk and no action.

Even today Honda's basic idea of a top line flagship luxury sedan for Acura is basically just a awd/hybrid Avalon.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 03:15
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Mikeydred wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.


I would be more than happy with Volvo like proportions as well especially if the can move things around to make it happen. It was pointed out by some though that Volvo uses 4 cylinder so its easier to package. I just hope they don't over complicate things for the sake of it.



The last thing Acura should be doing is copying Volvo. If you read reviews the powertrains are not exactly a strong point nor are they any real threat to the established luxury players. Instead of Acura or Volvo playing with proportions and using tiny engines on compromised platforms to try to give the impression of a RWD layout whey not just build a actual RWD layout, it is not like buyers can't just go with the real thing from other brands.

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 05:25
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RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).



According to the US patent US20170350324A1, the V6 was provided with an oil galley to a single turbo. I know it's only a schematic, albeit a detailed one.

The split-turbo would make a great deal of sense and e-turbos are coming, now that 48V is here.

It'd be unusual these days if they weren't all built off the same architecture.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 10:05
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Of what benefit would a split turbo bring to a production car? This mule is clearly not hurting for underhood space, and you introduce some gnarly vibration issues with the long shaft. An electric compressor is a good possibility, although I'm still iffy on the reliability of these things (48V better than the 12V first gen junk that had high current and resistance, but I still haven't been convinced by a real mass production setting).

JonBoy wrote:
The front axle appears to be pushed forward but the front overhang appears to be (at worst) the same or possibly even a little less than the current TLX.

In short, it looks to me like they needed a longer engine bay. That could mean a longitudinal engine layout.

Potentially, they could be using a TT V6 and they need more room for plumbing as well.



Unless the front overhang is by design choice, it would not be necessary to have it if it were in fact a longitudinal layout. If the front overhang is required because of a longitudinal layout, this is a very bad sign as the engine would still be sitting over the front wheels, if not farther forward than a transverse setup (remember early Audis?).

I get that this is a mule though, so someone went HAM with the torch and MIG and could have just left the front section "As is".

If we're cynical, this could be simply an engine-use test mule, with the exhaust/turbo facing the firewall and the engineers could just need the extra room for instrumentation.


Fitdad
Profile for Fitdad
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 10:22
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None of this makes any sense.

If they wanted a test bed for the new V6 why not use the new RDX? It can fit the new V6 right? Why extend the front on a current TLX like this? For that matter why does the front need extended? The dash/axle ratio on the RDX is about the same as itís ever been and weíve been told the new V6 fits in. Do they have multiple versions of the V6 coming with more than just differences in tuning? That also makes zero sense given everything we know about Acura.

And why make the MDX materially different from the RDX? That is where they make their money. Longer front subframe sounds dumb and pointless and needlessly costly on your main profit-driver. Just make a bigger RDX and print money with it.

Since nobody actually knows my crazy theory is as follows: the next gen TLX gets a smaller exterior but mostly maintains interior volume (bigger wheelbase) and moves to the new RDX platform with pricing and variants much the same as now - ad a Turbo 6 at the top and a 2.0t instead of the J - but itís a traditional sedan - itís size will appeal to ILX and TLX owners, plus Acura will bring the CDX over for those who want something truly small. TLX runs $33k-$55k. The ILX gets cancelled and the Integra hatch returns - but itís a long layout and itís ABOVE the TLX and starts north of $40k (think S5 Sportback). Itís got the Pikes Peak RDX powertrain standard with a 3.0t option. Call it $45k-$60k. Then the Legend returns on the same long platform as the Integra to replace the RLX. 3.0t standard. 500 hp 3.0t Sport Hybrid option. $65-$85k. MDX is on the RDX platform.

TL,DR: Acura combines the ILX/TLX on the RDX platform and brings back the Integra and Legend as their top two non-SUVs above the TLX on a shared long platform with relatively low production numbers.

Basically Acura gets the Integra instead of Honda getting the S2000 and they get the Legend as a bonus. The mule weíre seeing is the Integra 3.0t powertrain as it would be about the same size as a current TLX.

Mikeydred
Profile for Mikeydred
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 10:48
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lexusgs wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.


I would be more than happy with Volvo like proportions as well especially if the can move things around to make it happen. It was pointed out by some though that Volvo uses 4 cylinder so its easier to package. I just hope they don't over complicate things for the sake of it.



The last thing Acura should be doing is copying Volvo. If you read reviews the powertrains are not exactly a strong point nor are they any real threat to the established luxury players. Instead of Acura or Volvo playing with proportions and using tiny engines on compromised platforms to try to give the impression of a RWD layout whey not just build a actual RWD layout, it is not like buyers can't just go with the real thing from other brands.


Well we all know they are not going RWD and no one can deny that Volvo has nice proportions right now. I would prefer long like Audi but that's probably not going to happen either. If they can somehow get a 55/45 balance split they will be fine, AWD will mitigate any torque steer and this is a V6 turbo not a 4 pot, let's see what happens before screeming "fail"

Nick GravesX
Profile for Nick GravesX
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 10:54
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Of what benefit would a split turbo bring to a production car? This mule is clearly not hurting for underhood space, and you introduce some gnarly vibration issues with the long shaft. An electric compressor is a good possibility, although I'm still iffy on the reliability of these things (48V better than the 12V first gen junk that had high current and resistance, but I still haven't been convinced by a real mass production setting).

JonBoy wrote:
The front axle appears to be pushed forward but the front overhang appears to be (at worst) the same or possibly even a little less than the current TLX.

In short, it looks to me like they needed a longer engine bay. That could mean a longitudinal engine layout.

Potentially, they could be using a TT V6 and they need more room for plumbing as well.



Unless the front overhang is by design choice, it would not be necessary to have it if it were in fact a longitudinal layout. If the front overhang is required because of a longitudinal layout, this is a very bad sign as the engine would still be sitting over the front wheels, if not farther forward than a transverse setup (remember early Audis?).

I get that this is a mule though, so someone went HAM with the torch and MIG and could have just left the front section "As is".

If we're cynical, this could be simply an engine-use test mule, with the exhaust/turbo facing the firewall and the engineers could just need the extra room for instrumentation.




Actually, I compared my Leg End to a current Audi A6.

Because the Leg End's engine 'cube' sits over the driveshaft (rear bank), the engine is actually slightly farther rearward than in the Audi! Their diff isn't actually under the engine as yet, though that does permit them a lower hood line.

I suspect the car photographed has the new car's entire front end grafted on, to test cooling, etc. Probably to the old car's toeboard, otherwise the pedals might be a bit of a stretch...

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 11:02
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lexusgs wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.


I would be more than happy with Volvo like proportions as well especially if the can move things around to make it happen. It was pointed out by some though that Volvo uses 4 cylinder so its easier to package. I just hope they don't over complicate things for the sake of it.



The last thing Acura should be doing is copying Volvo. If you read reviews the powertrains are not exactly a strong point nor are they any real threat to the established luxury players. Instead of Acura or Volvo playing with proportions and using tiny engines on compromised platforms to try to give the impression of a RWD layout whey not just build a actual RWD layout, it is not like buyers can't just go with the real thing from other brands.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. As much as I want a true RWD for Acura, I also want something that is within reason so Acura can still keep their business afloat.

Anybody bringing Genesis and how a crap company can do RWD luxury division out of nowhere, didn't know Hyundai is a big ass company spanning construction, finance, metal, mining, and other money making that makes Honda all division combined looks like a 7 year old selling lemonade in front of their grandmother's house. Ok, let's say apple to apple, as a company which sells cars, Hyundai sells a literal metric ton of cars compared to Honda. Ini 2017, Hyundai sells 7 million units with Honda selling short of 5 million units. Hyundai simply has more money to play with. Also, Honda didn't have anybody to share development cost with, anything they sell needs to be profitable out of the door.

I get your position and you will stand by your thoughts like you always have for more than a decade you're here, I respect that, but business is business.

bnilhome
Profile for bnilhome
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 11:21
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lexusgs wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
This is just a power-train mule but there is some questions.

1)Why a longer front sub-frame?
The TLX already has a transverse 60 degree V6 so shouldn't need a longer front sub-frame unless the new DOHC V6 is a wide angle V.A V6TT doesn't work in a transverse layout unless you put the turbos in the V and that would call for a wide V.

The other reason for a longer front sub-frame is that the engine is in long. layout(do not think Honda will go this route).

Also a 3.0L V6 Turbo will have to much power for FWD so it will either be RWD or AWD only.In AWD it will have to be RWD bias system(larger rear Diff.).



The patents that showed the new V6 were not a 'hot V' design - their baffles air box would be irrelevant. A 'hot V' is more fashionable, though.

Moving the V behind the axle line makes M-SHAWD difficult to achieve (you need a PTO for the rear diff one side of the tranny and the front diff the other). One would also expect the front axle to move well forward due to the width of the crankcase. So I believe that layout to be unlikely, especially as it makes servicing the rear bank a bit awkward.

I agree a return to the Vigor layout seems unlikely - I would expect only one Acura plank to be shared by almost all its cars. Since the RDX is a more cab-forward CUV, the longer kick panel is less noticeable.

I therefore suspect they have done an RDX and moved the whole lot forward, away from the toe board. This means the engine bay will need re-packaging and batteries and air boxes and stuff will have to move to behind the engine. It may also be required to package the turbo and provide more air flow. I believe Mazda uses the space there for very long intake tracts on its Skyactiv cars with a similar axle-dash ratio.


All that trouble, cost, and re engineering just to not to do a properly balanced competitive premium RWD platform that would easily solve their issues.

It is hard to believe they may actually dump a lot of money into a modified Accord platform for the new Acura sedan/tt setup and it is still going to be compromised FWD/trans setup found in family sedans that will be pointed out in every single review.



Modified Accord platform? The current Accordís platform architecture canít accept a V6 or SH-AWD. The Precision architecture of which a variation is used under the 2019 RDX can accept a V6 and SH-AWD. It shares nothing with the Honda architecture, thatís been said. Iím not sure why you canít digest that.



Good points Civic. There are some on here (especially those infatuated with Genesis right now) that believe the only way to make good luxury performance cars is to have RWD, V8s and a primary focus on sedans, while the market and industry are focused on crossovers, performance through AWD, and twin turbo 4 and 6 cylinder engines.



Do you like just making stuff up. Please explain how the luxury market is focused on FWD trans sedans with AWD? Please name these performance oriented FWD family sedan based cars with AWD that are big sellers?

Most of the competition is RWD with AWD available, there is a huge difference between a sedan based on a balanced RWD platform with AWD mainly for some added traction over a sedan based on a compromised FWD family sedan platform that needs awd as a bandaid/crutch to try to overcome its compromises.

We are not talking about CUV's on this topic, we are talking about a TLX test mule, still I believe BMW, Audi, Lexus and Mercedes, the most successful sellers, still have more sedans/coupes then SUV's and most of their car lineup are based on premium RWD or long FWD platforms, only Lexus has the ES that is based on a FWD trans platform and it does not even have awd.

Pretty much all the 4 cylinders on the market are single turbo, tt 6 cylinders have replaced most NA 6 cylinders and in a few cases 8 cylinder but most companies still offer 8 cylinders along with 10 or 12 cylinders in some cases.

Another needless attack on Genesis, check the G80 sales against the RLX this month and the G70(which is getting good reviews) and other Genesis vehicles are on their way



You are the one on here consistently attacking Acura for anything and everything, and with the recent high praise across the board for the RDX, I have not seen you come forward and share in that successful launch. Nobody is defending the RLX on here and it's been a poorly executed sedan for a while. The TLX offers a very sporty ride and the A-Spec version of this is quite stunning, and the prior TL (3G) also competed extremely well against German competitors. I think most agree Acura lost its way with 4G TL but it's showing great signs of returning to a performance oriented company, and in my opinion it's not a must have to have a AWD-based vehicle on strict RWD platform. The new SH-AWD is able to transfer power to the rear wheels extremely well and offer a great driving experience.

Regarding Genesis, you have admitted previously that you are over Acura as a brand and interested in promoting Genesis, and there is nothing positive you ever say about Acura. I think Genesis certainly has promise but a sedan-only focus thus far has been a poor strategy. I just checked current car rebates too, and it looks like the G90 has over $9000 cash off now...something I have never seen other luxury makers offer.

lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 11:40
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Midi_Amp wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Mikeydred wrote:
Midi_Amp wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).


More advanced than the NSX engine? If you're correct then it will have the e-charger, eliminating the need for secondary motor and smaller battery pack, making things lighter.

I could care less where the engine is oriented as long the design and driving experience is uncompromised. Honda engineers delivers a great front wheel drive sports car with the CTR, why couldn't they deliver the same on an all wheel drive car? Volvo design works well with a transverse engine as well.

I hope the next gen TLX pulls no stop on driving performance, styling, proportion, and interior design. Hey, the power of dreams.


I would be more than happy with Volvo like proportions as well especially if the can move things around to make it happen. It was pointed out by some though that Volvo uses 4 cylinder so its easier to package. I just hope they don't over complicate things for the sake of it.



The last thing Acura should be doing is copying Volvo. If you read reviews the powertrains are not exactly a strong point nor are they any real threat to the established luxury players. Instead of Acura or Volvo playing with proportions and using tiny engines on compromised platforms to try to give the impression of a RWD layout whey not just build a actual RWD layout, it is not like buyers can't just go with the real thing from other brands.


You can't have your cake and eat it too. As much as I want a true RWD for Acura, I also want something that is within reason so Acura can still keep their business afloat.

Anybody bringing Genesis and how a crap company can do RWD luxury division out of nowhere, didn't know Hyundai is a big ass company spanning construction, finance, metal, mining, and other money making that makes Honda all division combined looks like a 7 year old selling lemonade in front of their grandmother's house. Ok, let's say apple to apple, as a company which sells cars, Hyundai sells a literal metric ton of cars compared to Honda. Ini 2017, Hyundai sells 7 million units with Honda selling short of 5 million units. Hyundai simply has more money to play with. Also, Honda didn't have anybody to share development cost with, anything they sell needs to be profitable out of the door.

I get your position and you will stand by your thoughts like you always have for more than a decade you're here, I respect that, but business is business.



It is not having your cake and eating it too, it is using the proper platform for what you are competing in. It is not like the RLX is cheap/affordable being on a FWD platform, using a Honda 6 cylinder, using fake wood trim, not even having mechanical awd. The TLX is not exactly cheap either once you step up to the only decent configuration, 6 cylinder, AWD, and tech package or advance though it does represent a value to the competitors tt 6 cylinder now, that will likely change once the new turbo 6 comes as it will likely carry a big premium, it will likely be a good deal more expensive and closer to the RWD competition. There is no reason why Acura could not offer a RWD TLX/TL or RLX that were priced similar to what they are selling for now, they would just have to eliminate the base 4 cylinder TLX/what it is priced at.

We have explained this argument before. RWD platforms are not made of platinum and hand made, they are not unobtainable luxuries that only big companies can do and Honda simply can't afford, there are small companies with RWD platforms, medium, and large. There is nothing particularly ground breaking or expensive about Genesis RWD platforms, they just work and are the best solution for what field they want to play in. If Honda is so pent up for money and just can't do what everyone else can do then they would not have built a new plant, new engine, new transmission, and new platform for the NSX which sells in minuscule numbers, they would not have wasted all that money on E Shawd which again sells in minuscule numbers, and they have delved into the luxury jet business too which costs a huge amount and may not see great returns. Honda is also a engine company, they don't just sell cars and I don't believe any other company then Hyundai/KIA paid for their platforms.

It is not like Acura sedans are success stories any more and don't need serious help to where a change is not absolutely needed, the RLX is a last place failure, ILX a dud, and TLX mid pack despite a attractive price and incentives. Giving Acura a premium RWD platform would pretty certainly guarantee them more success, would certainly make them competitive and solve most of their issues, likely bigger profits, stop loss of money, having to price cars lower and lower, give incentives just to move them. How can they possibly be happy or satisfied with the RLX and their "flagship" being a consistent last place failure and it pretty much all has to do on the cost cut platform it started out on. Doing the same thing over and over which is clearly not working and what hurts Acura is the poor business decision and will result in more loss of money.

Do you think Acura would be in the position they are in now if they continued with the Tier 1 plans a decade ago? No, they would be in much better shape brand wise and financially, you have to spend money to make money in the auto business, you can't just hunker down and hold off especially in the luxury market.




lexusgs
Profile for lexusgs
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 12:08
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bnilhome wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
bnilhome wrote:
Civicb18 wrote:
lexusgs wrote:
Nick GravesX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
This is just a power-train mule but there is some questions.

1)Why a longer front sub-frame?
The TLX already has a transverse 60 degree V6 so shouldn't need a longer front sub-frame unless the new DOHC V6 is a wide angle V.A V6TT doesn't work in a transverse layout unless you put the turbos in the V and that would call for a wide V.

The other reason for a longer front sub-frame is that the engine is in long. layout(do not think Honda will go this route).

Also a 3.0L V6 Turbo will have to much power for FWD so it will either be RWD or AWD only.In AWD it will have to be RWD bias system(larger rear Diff.).



The patents that showed the new V6 were not a 'hot V' design - their baffles air box would be irrelevant. A 'hot V' is more fashionable, though.

Moving the V behind the axle line makes M-SHAWD difficult to achieve (you need a PTO for the rear diff one side of the tranny and the front diff the other). One would also expect the front axle to move well forward due to the width of the crankcase. So I believe that layout to be unlikely, especially as it makes servicing the rear bank a bit awkward.

I agree a return to the Vigor layout seems unlikely - I would expect only one Acura plank to be shared by almost all its cars. Since the RDX is a more cab-forward CUV, the longer kick panel is less noticeable.

I therefore suspect they have done an RDX and moved the whole lot forward, away from the toe board. This means the engine bay will need re-packaging and batteries and air boxes and stuff will have to move to behind the engine. It may also be required to package the turbo and provide more air flow. I believe Mazda uses the space there for very long intake tracts on its Skyactiv cars with a similar axle-dash ratio.


All that trouble, cost, and re engineering just to not to do a properly balanced competitive premium RWD platform that would easily solve their issues.

It is hard to believe they may actually dump a lot of money into a modified Accord platform for the new Acura sedan/tt setup and it is still going to be compromised FWD/trans setup found in family sedans that will be pointed out in every single review.



Modified Accord platform? The current Accordís platform architecture canít accept a V6 or SH-AWD. The Precision architecture of which a variation is used under the 2019 RDX can accept a V6 and SH-AWD. It shares nothing with the Honda architecture, thatís been said. Iím not sure why you canít digest that.



Good points Civic. There are some on here (especially those infatuated with Genesis right now) that believe the only way to make good luxury performance cars is to have RWD, V8s and a primary focus on sedans, while the market and industry are focused on crossovers, performance through AWD, and twin turbo 4 and 6 cylinder engines.



Do you like just making stuff up. Please explain how the luxury market is focused on FWD trans sedans with AWD? Please name these performance oriented FWD family sedan based cars with AWD that are big sellers?

Most of the competition is RWD with AWD available, there is a huge difference between a sedan based on a balanced RWD platform with AWD mainly for some added traction over a sedan based on a compromised FWD family sedan platform that needs awd as a bandaid/crutch to try to overcome its compromises.

We are not talking about CUV's on this topic, we are talking about a TLX test mule, still I believe BMW, Audi, Lexus and Mercedes, the most successful sellers, still have more sedans/coupes then SUV's and most of their car lineup are based on premium RWD or long FWD platforms, only Lexus has the ES that is based on a FWD trans platform and it does not even have awd.

Pretty much all the 4 cylinders on the market are single turbo, tt 6 cylinders have replaced most NA 6 cylinders and in a few cases 8 cylinder but most companies still offer 8 cylinders along with 10 or 12 cylinders in some cases.

Another needless attack on Genesis, check the G80 sales against the RLX this month and the G70(which is getting good reviews) and other Genesis vehicles are on their way



You are the one on here consistently attacking Acura for anything and everything, and with the recent high praise across the board for the RDX, I have not seen you come forward and share in that successful launch. Nobody is defending the RLX on here and it's been a poorly executed sedan for a while. The TLX offers a very sporty ride and the A-Spec version of this is quite stunning, and the prior TL (3G) also competed extremely well against German competitors. I think most agree Acura lost its way with 4G TL but it's showing great signs of returning to a performance oriented company, and in my opinion it's not a must have to have a AWD-based vehicle on strict RWD platform. The new SH-AWD is able to transfer power to the rear wheels extremely well and offer a great driving experience.

Regarding Genesis, you have admitted previously that you are over Acura as a brand and interested in promoting Genesis, and there is nothing positive you ever say about Acura. I think Genesis certainly has promise but a sedan-only focus thus far has been a poor strategy. I just checked current car rebates too, and it looks like the G90 has over $9000 cash off now...something I have never seen other luxury makers offer.


I call out bad decisions by Honda/Acura and I have been right every time. I don't attack the brand just for the hell of it, I used to be one of its biggest defenders and supporters and I do give praise when they do things right like the styling of the NSX and what it offers but I do criticize that they can not just offer one single version and then let it whither.

I don't need to gush over the RDX in the RDX thread, it is improved in many ways over the previous one but we have not even had a full sales month of it yet and it is not even at our dealership yet. A improved entry level CUV is not going to suddenly turn Acura's problems around which mainly boil down to cars and what they are based on or make them into a full luxury/performance company. The TLX offers a sporty ride for a sedan based on a Accord, A spec does not suddenly turn it into a 3 series killer either. SHawd does not suddenly make compromised FWD family sedans handle, look, and behave like RWD cars either.

Acura has lost its way with the ILX, TLX, RLX, not just the 4th Gen TL which was actually pretty good at the time once it got the 6 speed auto and in SHawd form.

I don't promote any brand here, not sure where you get that from. There are many more people then me that criticize Acura and point out the strengths of what Genesis/Hyundai/KIA has done. Other luxury brands have taken off huge amounts of money for cars, Lexus was taking $8000 for the GS350 and in some cases $16,000 off on F cars, and what about $30K off for the NSX at the end of the year and those aren't the only examples. The G90 still sells more then double what the RLX sells despite being a more expensive car, pretty much all the real flagships sell much more then the RLX every single month.

Dren
Profile for Dren
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 13:41
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CarPhreakD wrote:
Of what benefit would a split turbo bring to a production car? This mule is clearly not hurting for underhood space, and you introduce some gnarly vibration issues with the long shaft. An electric compressor is a good possibility, although I'm still iffy on the reliability of these things (48V better than the 12V first gen junk that had high current and resistance, but I still haven't been convinced by a real mass production setting).



I also don't see the benefit in this situation for a split turbo. I figure they'd simply attach the motor to the turbo coaxially. They could still have the motor rest in the V with the turbo just outside.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 13:49
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I'm not even sure they're going to directly attach an electronic compressor directly to the turbine. At this stage most OEMs are using the approach of "traditional turbo (compressor/turbine)", plus upstream secondary electronic compressor with bypass valve- this is the more reliable setup, even if it's not as compact.

The Hot-V is also a somewhat difficult package to configure for a road car, because of the routing of various emissions and cooling components (PCV and intercooling comes to mind, along with vibrations with having to actually bracket the turbocharger at the very top of the engine).

Dren
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Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 14:07
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If they want to do any sort of generating with the unit they'd have to attach it to the turbine. The motor won't have to be nearly as large as what F1 uses since the compressor power demands will be lower. F1 runs over 3 bar.

They'll need the generation from somewhere, so either the turbine, an oversized alternator or go the old-school Honda flywheel MGU approach. If they go with that approach, they don't need the e-boost in the first place since they can torque fill with the MGU, but with the larger battery storage weight.

TonyEX
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Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 14:36
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Nick GravesX wrote:
RolledaNsx wrote:
So it looks like from the clues(Spy pics and patents) that the RDX,RLX and MDX will be built off the the same platform with the RLX and MDX having a new longer front Sub-Frame.That means all three can be built off the same production line and the MDX can/will be bigger than the RDX.

The new V-6 Turbo will be the most advance production engine that Honda ever delivered.

So it looks like the new V6 will be transverse and that means it will only have one turbo(very bad lag) because two turbos do not work in transverse(heat and space).
The single turbo will most likely will be above the trans(either end of block is the only place to put it to get equal length exhaust pipes).
The single turbo will mean it will need a eSupercharger to fix the lag(48V).

BUT WAIT... Honda could be thinking like they was in the 80's-90's with them bringing F1 Tech to production engines(VTEC,Ti rods and 8000 redline in 1990).

Will they use a F1 like Spit-Turbo(compressor on one end with the turbine on the other)?
The compressor would have a eMotor to spin it in the low rev range(this would be a better system than a complete Turbocharger and an eSupercharger because the F1 system would need less parts and plumbing).



According to the US patent US20170350324A1, the V6 was provided with an oil galley to a single turbo. I know it's only a schematic, albeit a detailed one.

The split-turbo would make a great deal of sense and e-turbos are coming, now that 48V is here.

It'd be unusual these days if they weren't all built off the same architecture.



How about an H2O2 rocket out the back for low end acceleration and a high top speed.

Imagine those "high speed" pursuits if the cars had an auxiliary H2O2 rocket (or two) out the back.

"Rationality, however, is not the only reason we humans do things"

http://www.rrs.org/a-hydrogen-peroxide-rocket/

CarPhreakD
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Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 15:01
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48V systems currently use a belt system generator (start/stop) and/or brake regen. I don't expect them to employ some sort of F1 style turbine recovery system.
Mikeydred
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Re: Acura TLX-Based Test Mule Spy Photos    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-13-2018 21:27
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I like many on here have been critical of Acura as well especially for this generation of cost cutting products compared to the previous versions yet we still purchased a top level MDX as it was the right product for our family needs.
I personally just want to see Acura succeed, but we have had several years of disappointment and failed promises/rumors that its understandable to be pessimistic. The point is, if the RDX signals a new revival for Acura than I am all for it, but the designs have to be well executed and performance at a class competitive level. It is much easier to make a successful SUV as styling is not the highest priority and you can do more with packaging to work around a "less than desirable" chasis/drivetrainp.
For the sedans, I can care less which wheels are driving the car but the design has to be good/head turning and I agree RWD offers the best proportions but again Volvo and most Audi's prove you can still have good design, driving dynamics aside as RWD doesn't guarantee good driving dynamics either. I personally always preferred AWD anyways as I live in the the NE and as I stated before most companies are going AWD anyways as it's the best way to put down power. Also AWD doesn't have the same fuel penalties that it was did now that other technologies and engine advancements have made vehicles more fuel efficient.
Acura has been taunting performance the last 12 to 18 months or so, the RDX is the first under their new direction and appears to be a universal success (hopefully quality issues don't pop up to kill hype). Let's see what they can do with a clean sheet on a sedan before we say all is doom, maybe they have a trick or two up their sleeve.
Side note at least we are getting a next generation gas engine from Honda when most companies are starting to chase electric.



 
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