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  TOV Articles > TOVA : Honda CR-Z PowerTrain/Driving Dynamics > > Re: Class Action

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dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 00:46
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The clock is ticking on a class action against Honda for misleading the public on power ratings for their IMA Hybrids.

Its nice to offer static power ratings on cars that make static horsepower and TQ. But when you have a system like this that only develops the advertised peak horse power in conditions where the battery is fully charged, it's false advertising to claim the numbers they do without disclaimer, which does not exist.

In all IMA Hondas the battery is rarely at full charge and when the IMA battery is lowered or the car is force charging, the electric motor never delivers the advertised power.

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 01:12
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Maybe after all the Toyota lawsuits are settled, the lawyers will find time to examine whether Honda has been misleading the public by stating the combined gas and electric horsepower ratings alongside the separate gas and electric power ratings. It will be difficult to demonstrate damages unless someone's widow can show that their hubby couldn't beat the train across the tracks because his Honda hybrid didn't have as much power as Honda claimed it did.

shingles
Profile for shingles
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 05:12
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Was this a serious post?
danielgr
Profile for danielgr
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 05:19
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dezoris wrote:
The clock is ticking on a class action against Honda for misleading the public on power ratings for their IMA Hybrids.

Its nice to offer static power ratings on cars that make static horsepower and TQ. But when you have a system like this that only develops the advertised peak horse power in conditions where the battery is fully charged, it's false advertising to claim the numbers they do without disclaimer, which does not exist.

In all IMA Hondas the battery is rarely at full charge and when the IMA battery is lowered or the car is force charging, the electric motor never delivers the advertised power.

You don't need to have full battery charge to get maximum assist. Whenever there is enough battery, if you go WOT you get maximum assist.
Moreover, going by your reasoning all manufacturers should be sued, since hardly any user ever gets access to the maximum advertised power, for two reasons:
- you need to be at maximum rpm to get it, which barely never happens for 99% of people out there, and impossible to keep continuously unless you've got a CVT tranny.
- they advertise power at the crank, when what actually helps the car moving is power at the wheels, and therefore they mislead you because power loses aren't equal accross cars.

Bottom line, manufacturers don't mislead you, they give you the information which you have to be smart enough to understand. If you aren't and want to make reasonable choices, simply take the time to learn, because the info is there.
Honda quotes maximum power and torque for:
- gasoline engine
- electric motor
- combined figures

You have to be smart enough to know that you need both gasoline to power your engine and battery charge to power your electric motor. No charge no motor, no gas no engine.

Actually, the irony of things is that Honda CVT hybrids are among the very few cars that nearly always provide you maximum power when going WOT.

Alex_Bog_16v
Profile for Alex_Bog_16v
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 07:31
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If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).

danielgr
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Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 11:26
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).

You anti-hybrid guys are so funny...
1st) Who on earth drives an Insight like a maniac? If you drive like a maniac, you wouldn't buy an Hybrid to begin with. If your question is "are hybrids adequate cars for maniacs", the answer is "no", so what?

2nd) For most people, hard accelerations never last for long, and are usually followed by braking or constant speed cruise (both of which will charge your battery to get ready for the next acceleration), because there are not many infinite roads with no speed limits, save some parts of germany. And yes, if you are planing to get a car to floor it everyday on the autobahn (like many Germans do), stay away from the hybrids, because you won't get much out of them. Now, again, if you are buying a hybrid you should be concerned about the environment and fuel efficiency, and if you are you wouldn't travel across Germany at 200+ kmph.

3rd) Really, if you are dumb enough not to understand that an electric motor doesn't work with no battery charge, and that you may run out of juice if you use it all the time without charging it, it's really your problem. Automakers clearly specify gas-engine power on every spec-sheet on any country, so you should perfectly know what you have under the bonnet.

4th) You will never be able to drive any non-CVT car at max power for more than a few miliseconds, yet you don't care, and automakers don't care (and I don't care). The fact is, no automaker tells you "you can drive at the rated max power", they tell you "the maximum power of this machine is XXX kW", and then you use your brain to figure the rest (f you'd like to).


Really people, get a life, or get an hybrid and see for yourself. For people buying those (which aren't the people that would buy a TypeR to burn the asphalt), they do a beautiful job, providing assist when you need power, charge when you don't need power, and reducing your overall emissions and fuel use (which happens to be the main point of the hybrid tech, and the reason why people buy them).


dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 16:50
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The point is simple, if the battery is depleted like it often is or is at the bottom 15% on the SOC meter the BCM does not allow full electric power to the electric motor.

The HP and TQ ratings Honda describes are only in lab perfect conditions.

In the real world they are completely different. As the state of charge is always an estimate. If anyone of you have ever owned an IMA Honda, which almost no one on this website does you would know immediately how much power is lost when the battery SOC is low and the generator is force charging.

For legal reasons I am not going to post the specific documentation on the actual power output reductions owners have seen but I can tell you it's 15-20% on average from what Honda advertises. Because the IMA system is variable and never produces advertised power except in perfect conditions.

This does not even take in account the age of battery where the power loss issues are much worse.

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 16:59
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danielgr wrote:



Really people, get a life, or get an hybrid and see for yourself. For people buying those (which aren't the people that would buy a TypeR to burn the asphalt), they do a beautiful job, providing assist when you need power, charge when you don't need power, and reducing your overall emissions and fuel use (which happens to be the main point of the hybrid tech, and the reason why people buy them).




You understand this business and the Honda IMA system but what you are not understanding is that most owners who see a power loss are driving their cars in a reasonable manner.

The problem is after even a short burst of minor acceleration even at 15% throttle in first gear the electric motor will boost to aid launching. For a practical example if you happen to be at half SOC which is very common and you dip below that threshold the car will start to force charge which lugs the motor worse than turning on two air conditioning compressors which in many cases causes you to accelerate more often re-engaging electric assist.

In cases where you hit that sweet spot where the BCM decides its too low and needs to force charge all the time it won't supply full power when you need it. Is this rare? No it's horribly common and much worse with age, and degradation can be seen as early as 40,000 miles.

Trip
Profile for Trip
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 20:48
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danielgr wrote: You anti-hybrid guys are so funny...
1st) Who on earth drives an Insight like a maniac?



I don't think you realize how stupid people in the US are. :)~

I can't tell you how many Insights and Prius Hyrbrids I've seen driven like the police are after them. There *will* be people that flog the CR-Z to death and then will complain about lousy fuel mileage. (On a related note, it amazes me how people in regular gasoline powered cars complain about mileage and fail to realize they drive with a lead foot.)

I think we'll see a large number of complaints about the CR-Z's fuel mileage. Why? Just like the yo-yo snoop doggy shiznit crowd that the 8th gen Accord coupe attracts, the CR-Z will attract mod'ers, ricers, and people who want to be seen in the car. They'll completely ignore the car's purpose, strengths, limitations, etc… yet will complain that it’s slow and not very fuel efficient. I don’t think they’ll realize that 20” rims, high performance tires, and driving like you stole it will sap the car’s fuel economy and perhaps the battery performance.

Blue_Sky_surfer
Profile for Blue_Sky_surfer
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 20:57
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
(hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).

Have you driven a HCH?
IS this ALL in your imagination?
Do you know how the AC work in HCH?

montechester
Profile for montechester
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 22:14
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dezoris wrote:
The clock is ticking on a class action against Honda for misleading the public on power ratings for their IMA Hybrids.

Its nice to offer static power ratings on cars that make static horsepower and TQ. But when you have a system like this that only develops the advertised peak horse power in conditions where the battery is fully charged, it's false advertising to claim the numbers they do without disclaimer, which does not exist.

In all IMA Hondas the battery is rarely at full charge and when the IMA battery is lowered or the car is force charging, the electric motor never delivers the advertised power.




PLEASE tell me you are joking?

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2010 11:24
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Already been filed.
No joke.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-23-2010 12:14
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Just curious. Who filed it ?

I apologise if I unintentionally offend anyone here but I have always thought some of the lawsuits I read about in the U.S. can border on the ridiculous. The case of that legal clerk who sued a dhoby for not honoring their figure of speech 'satisfaction guaranteed' card placed on the front window was, to me, completely crazy. But now this one takes the cake. Surely sane people with common sense will know that publsihed fuel economy figures CAN be acheived but only under very controlled conditions. Real life fuel consumption acheivements depends heavily on a lot of conditions and will vary even at different times of the day.

JIRZLEE
Profile for JIRZLEE
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 11:16
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The funny thing is that is sounds kind of like dezoris actually agrees with this crap. Utter useless crap
the insider
Profile for the insider
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 14:41
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).


Then how come they don't have to put a disclaimer n for horsepower on petrol only vehicles in regards to having xxxHP at the crank at sea level with 20% humidity and ambient temperatures of 63 degrees? They know that if the temperature was 97 degrees and they were 4300 feet above sea level and the humidity was 75% the actual power output from the engine stats would not match.

The complaint against Honda's hybrid rating could be made against any manufacturers HP ratings based on the 3 factors I mentioned (and I'm sure there are more).


HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action I am SO Pissed I never get the MPG on the window of the Insight!!!!! [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:20
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dezoris wrote:
The clock is ticking on a class action against Honda for misleading the public on power ratings for their IMA Hybrids.

Its nice to offer static power ratings on cars that make static horsepower and TQ. But when you have a system like this that only develops the advertised peak horse power in conditions where the battery is fully charged, it's false advertising to claim the numbers they do without disclaimer, which does not exist.

In all IMA Hondas the battery is rarely at full charge and when the IMA battery is lowered or the car is force charging, the electric motor never delivers the advertised power.


dezoris,

Please explain why I NEVER get the 41MPG combined the MSRP claims? I always get more then that WAY MORE, I am SUING because I am not getting what I paid to get, 41mpg.......

Do you know how STUPID your post sounds? Sorry, but I am not the type to hold back and be polite sometimes. A cars PEAK HP is rated at a cretin RPM as is the electric motor. If you read about Honda's batteries you will see that they function in a 20 to 80% charge range and produce the 10HP or so in that range. If you run the car's charge to 20% you are doing something VERY wrong..............With average driving I have never gotten below 45MPG and the battery has never gone below 1/2. It still produces the same HP and if you drive the car right then you will always have that pack reserve you need. If you drive it like you STOLE it then you will suffer and you CAN'T sue because you are not driving the car in the recommended manor in which Honda explains in the owners manual.

Your case is weak and will be tossed out...........



HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:39
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dezoris wrote:
danielgr wrote:



Really people, get a life, or get an hybrid and see for yourself. For people buying those (which aren't the people that would buy a TypeR to burn the asphalt), they do a beautiful job, providing assist when you need power, charge when you don't need power, and reducing your overall emissions and fuel use (which happens to be the main point of the hybrid tech, and the reason why people buy them).




You understand this business and the Honda IMA system but what you are not understanding is that most owners who see a power loss are driving their cars in a reasonable manner.

The problem is after even a short burst of minor acceleration even at 15% throttle in first gear the electric motor will boost to aid launching. For a practical example if you happen to be at half SOC which is very common and you dip below that threshold the car will start to force charge which lugs the motor worse than turning on two air conditioning compressors which in many cases causes you to accelerate more often re-engaging electric assist.

In cases where you hit that sweet spot where the BCM decides its too low and needs to force charge all the time it won't supply full power when you need it. Is this rare? No it's horribly common and much worse with age, and degradation can be seen as early as 40,000 miles.


Hmmmmmmm I have a 1st GEN Insight customer with over 130k on the original battery pack and he still gets in the 60mpg range after 10 years??????? I have 2003 Civic hybrid customers with well over 100k and they are still getting in the mid 40's.

Again, you have NO IDEA what you are talking about. If you understand the IMA and how to use it, you can maximize the power, charging and fuel economy just by knowing where you are driving, how to go down and up hills, brake and accelerate.

You have not driven the IMA extensively. I got 45mpg in a V6 Accord hybrid from Cleveland to Detroit on cruse control at 62/65 mph. I reached 45mpg about 60 miles into the trip and held it between 42 and 45 till I got into Metro Detroit and parked at just over 41mpg. On the way back I didn't try to achieve any record MPG and got 38mpg at 65/68mph.

The Accord system is VERY COOL, it is very interactive and I ran on 3cyl most of the way. You need to go back to school...

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:41
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WongKN wrote:
Just curious. Who filed it ?

I apologise if I unintentionally offend anyone here but I have always thought some of the lawsuits I read about in the U.S. can border on the ridiculous. The case of that legal clerk who sued a dhoby for not honoring their figure of speech 'satisfaction guaranteed' card placed on the front window was, to me, completely crazy. But now this one takes the cake. Surely sane people with common sense will know that publsihed fuel economy figures CAN be acheived but only under very controlled conditions. Real life fuel consumption acheivements depends heavily on a lot of conditions and will vary even at different times of the day.


90% of all law suits in America are not worthy of the time spent in court. It's called GREED!

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:44
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Trip wrote:
danielgr wrote: You anti-hybrid guys are so funny...
1st) Who on earth drives an Insight like a maniac?



I don't think you realize how stupid people in the US are. :)~

I can't tell you how many Insights and Prius Hyrbrids I've seen driven like the police are after them. There *will* be people that flog the CR-Z to death and then will complain about lousy fuel mileage. (On a related note, it amazes me how people in regular gasoline powered cars complain about mileage and fail to realize they drive with a lead foot.)

I think we'll see a large number of complaints about the CR-Z's fuel mileage. Why? Just like the yo-yo snoop doggy shiznit crowd that the 8th gen Accord coupe attracts, the CR-Z will attract mod'ers, ricers, and people who want to be seen in the car. They'll completely ignore the car's purpose, strengths, limitations, etc… yet will complain that it’s slow and not very fuel efficient. I don’t think they’ll realize that 20” rims, high performance tires, and driving like you stole it will sap the car’s fuel economy and perhaps the battery performance.


You must live in my hood Fa-thizle LOL!

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:49
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dezoris wrote:
The point is simple, if the battery is depleted like it often is or is at the bottom 15% on the SOC meter the BCM does not allow full electric power to the electric motor.

The HP and TQ ratings Honda describes are only in lab perfect conditions.

In the real world they are completely different. As the state of charge is always an estimate. If anyone of you have ever owned an IMA Honda, which almost no one on this website does you would know immediately how much power is lost when the battery SOC is low and the generator is force charging.

For legal reasons I am not going to post the specific documentation on the actual power output reductions owners have seen but I can tell you it's 15-20% on average from what Honda advertises. Because the IMA system is variable and never produces advertised power except in perfect conditions.

This does not even take in account the age of battery where the power loss issues are much worse.


Where are you getting this info from, I have never driven an Insight, Civic or Accord and depleted the battery let alone got it below 1/2?

Now I do play around and experiment and at 32mph shift it to "S" and paddle it up to 7th gear and let the battery do all the work to see what happens, but that still takes some time to deplete the battery. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

HONDA AFVM
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Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-24-2010 23:51
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dezoris wrote:
Already been filed.
No joke.


It will be tossed out so fast the filer will be jailed for wasting the courts time.

WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 00:42
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Already been filed.
No joke.


It will be tossed out so fast the filer will be jailed for wasting the courts time.



Anyone has any way to confirm the existence of this lawsuit ?

A number of years ago, I was somewhat involved in a lawsuit a group of Singapore car owners tried to file against Mistubishi. Mistubishi launched their Lancer with a 1.6l DOHC MIVEC engine rated at 175hp, to compete with the EK4 Honda Civic SiR with the 170hp B16A DOHC VTEC engine. At that time, the idea of dyno-ing a car to check for power delivery was a novelty and the Dynojet was just appearing in ASEAN. The first unit was installed in AEROTECH, a Honda and supercar tuning specialists here in KL/PJ. Anyway, first a TOVA reader with a modified EK4 Civic SiR came over and dyno'ed his car. With a way above expected power rating, he went back and shared the results with friends, some of whom bought the Mitsubihsi Lancer because it's supposed to have 5hp more than the Civic SiR. So the next trip saw a group of Civic SiR and Lancer MIVEN owners drive up to Malaysia for a 'dyno-session'. To cut a long story short, the Civic SiRs all delivered their expected power at the Dynojet (~140+hp 'at the wheel's). The Lancer MIVECs OTOH caused a lot of heartbreaks because they delivered only around 110hp on the Dynojet, way below the Civic SiR which was supposed to have 5hp less power. A heavily modified Lancer MIVEC delivered 135hp and the owner was overjoyed until he learned that a completely stock Civic SiR delivers >140hp.

Anyway, the very dissapointed Lancer MIVEC owners went back to Singapore and there were a lot of heated debates and discusisons and eventually the decision was for a group of Lancer MIVEC owners/enthusiasts to file a lawsuit against Mitsubishi Singapore for misleading specifications. The idea was that the Dynojet test was supposed to be conclusive and compared with the Honda Civic SiR, it 'proves' the Lancer MIVEC do not have 175hp as claimed by Mitsubishi.

Mitsubishi's response to this was to publicly state that Dynojet measurements and their own internal measurement are different procedures and thus the two results cannot be directly compared. Also, the Dynojet results cannot be compared against other makes and conclusions drawn from the comparison are not valid. Lastly, that it was Mitsubishi's opinion that 110hp measured on a Dynojet is COMMENSURATE with 175hp rated at the engine crank.

After a lot more arguements to and fro, it turns out the lawsuit itself cannot be made to stick. There was no grounds for the lawsuit and it cannot be filed with any reasonable degree of confidence for winning. Eventually those Lancer MIVEC owners gave up. Those who can afford, quickly switched to other makes. Those who have to stick with their car, have no choice but to do so.

Based on this, assuming the level of sanity and common sense prevails in the US legal system, I would expect this lawsuit to be thrown out of the courts as well. Both power and EPA measurements are done under extremely strict laboratory control conditions. This condition does not really correlate to any real life condition. Furthermore, the EPA measurement is for a very specific driving pattern. While 'in theory' it is supposed to mimic the real life 'driving cycle', unless one can conclusively prove that any derived mileage figures were obtained in EXACTLY the same conditions as the EPA test, otherwise those mileage figures cannot be used a 'scientific proof' (so to speak). The issue with EPA and power measurement is that atmospheric conditions comes into play as so far, I do NOT know of anyonw who can control the weather.

BTW, Mitsubishi never sold the LANCER MIVEC again after that incidence. But they do sell the EVO.

clowny
Profile for clowny
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 09:28
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1. I think this fellow is talking hypothetically (at best)...
2. He is also largely wrong about his facts. The battery meter is not voltage, but capacity, i.e., % amp hours left. Modern NiMH batteries deliver essentially rated voltage until ~80% depleted depending on amp draw, that is how capacity is defined. Rated voltage delivers rated power. I know this as an owner of two hybrids, and from shopping nearly identical batteries for demanding model aircraft application.... See first red line graph:
http://www.slkelectronics.com/ecalc/gen4a.htm
3. Hybrid cars discharge their batteries in a rather narrow window re capacity, and max amp draw is brief in typical usage, and limited by the control electronics in any event. It is possible that hybrid capacity battery meters show zero percent when a battery is 50% discharged as the electronics don't allow full discharge short of leaving lights on and walking away... The electronics shouldn't allow that either, but my daughters have taught me that it is possible.
4. All that to say that the IMA operates as described more often than not. Extreme cold storage might degrade performance briefly, but the batteries warm up faster than the car...
Let's sue them for not bringing back that cool lime green color instead...

HONDA AFVM
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Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 11:12
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clowny wrote:
1. I think this fellow is talking hypothetically (at best)...
2. He is also largely wrong about his facts. The battery meter is not voltage, but capacity, i.e., % amp hours left. Modern NiMH batteries deliver essentially rated voltage until ~80% depleted depending on amp draw, that is how capacity is defined. Rated voltage delivers rated power. I know this as an owner of two hybrids, and from shopping nearly identical batteries for demanding model aircraft application.... See first red line graph:
http://www.slkelectronics.com/ecalc/gen4a.htm
3. Hybrid cars discharge their batteries in a rather narrow window re capacity, and max amp draw is brief in typical usage, and limited by the control electronics in any event. It is possible that hybrid capacity battery meters show zero percent when a battery is 50% discharged as the electronics don't allow full discharge short of leaving lights on and walking away... The electronics shouldn't allow that either, but my daughters have taught me that it is possible.
4. All that to say that the IMA operates as described more often than not. Extreme cold storage might degrade performance briefly, but the batteries warm up faster than the car...
Let's sue them for not bringing back that cool lime green color instead...


LOL! I love the 1st gen Insight Lime green..........I didn't want to get to technical with this guy. After all, he can't understand the basic workings if the battery pack, how is he supposed to understand terms like "rated voltage" AND "Hybrid cars discharge their batteries in a rather narrow window re capacity, and max amp draw is brief in typical usage, and limited by the control electronics in any event."

Who ever is filing the suit is stupid, the lawyer is even more stupid and our poster just doesn't get it!

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 13:08
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WongKN wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Already been filed.
No joke.


It will be tossed out so fast the filer will be jailed for wasting the courts time.



Anyone has any way to confirm the existence of this lawsuit ?

A number of years ago, I was somewhat involved in a lawsuit a group of Singapore car owners tried to file against Mistubishi. Mistubishi launched their Lancer with a 1.6l DOHC MIVEC engine rated at 175hp, to compete with the EK4 Honda Civic SiR with the 170hp B16A DOHC VTEC engine. At that time, the idea of dyno-ing a car to check for power delivery was a novelty and the Dynojet was just appearing in ASEAN. The first unit was installed in AEROTECH, a Honda and supercar tuning specialists here in KL/PJ. Anyway, first a TOVA reader with a modified EK4 Civic SiR came over and dyno'ed his car. With a way above expected power rating, he went back and shared the results with friends, some of whom bought the Mitsubihsi Lancer because it's supposed to have 5hp more than the Civic SiR. So the next trip saw a group of Civic SiR and Lancer MIVEN owners drive up to Malaysia for a 'dyno-session'. To cut a long story short, the Civic SiRs all delivered their expected power at the Dynojet (~140+hp 'at the wheel's). The Lancer MIVECs OTOH caused a lot of heartbreaks because they delivered only around 110hp on the Dynojet, way below the Civic SiR which was supposed to have 5hp less power. A heavily modified Lancer MIVEC delivered 135hp and the owner was overjoyed until he learned that a completely stock Civic SiR delivers >140hp.

Anyway, the very dissapointed Lancer MIVEC owners went back to Singapore and there were a lot of heated debates and discusisons and eventually the decision was for a group of Lancer MIVEC owners/enthusiasts to file a lawsuit against Mitsubishi Singapore for misleading specifications. The idea was that the Dynojet test was supposed to be conclusive and compared with the Honda Civic SiR, it 'proves' the Lancer MIVEC do not have 175hp as claimed by Mitsubishi.

Mitsubishi's response to this was to publicly state that Dynojet measurements and their own internal measurement are different procedures and thus the two results cannot be directly compared. Also, the Dynojet results cannot be compared against other makes and conclusions drawn from the comparison are not valid. Lastly, that it was Mitsubishi's opinion that 110hp measured on a Dynojet is COMMENSURATE with 175hp rated at the engine crank.

After a lot more arguements to and fro, it turns out the lawsuit itself cannot be made to stick. There was no grounds for the lawsuit and it cannot be filed with any reasonable degree of confidence for winning. Eventually those Lancer MIVEC owners gave up. Those who can afford, quickly switched to other makes. Those who have to stick with their car, have no choice but to do so.

Based on this, assuming the level of sanity and common sense prevails in the US legal system, I would expect this lawsuit to be thrown out of the courts as well. Both power and EPA measurements are done under extremely strict laboratory control conditions. This condition does not really correlate to any real life condition. Furthermore, the EPA measurement is for a very specific driving pattern. While 'in theory' it is supposed to mimic the real life 'driving cycle', unless one can conclusively prove that any derived mileage figures were obtained in EXACTLY the same conditions as the EPA test, otherwise those mileage figures cannot be used a 'scientific proof' (so to speak). The issue with EPA and power measurement is that atmospheric conditions comes into play as so far, I do NOT know of anyonw who can control the weather.

BTW, Mitsubishi never sold the LANCER MIVEC again after that incidence. But they do sell the EVO.


Mazda had the same suit 5 years ago or so with the Miata. They offered a buy back or some sort of service thing, but they ADMITTED IT, which if that was the case with Honda or Mitsu, then you have a case. There arte TOO MANNY VARIABLES and it can not harm or put others in any sort of danger. There is no viable case except they misinformed the public and at 98 HP, I really don't think anyone believes that an Insight is supposed to be a race car. Any sensible Judge will look at this and BURN the filings on his bench and have the Lawyer and the Filer taken into custody for a good corn holing from BUBBA! LOL! To which they 100% deserve.

What kind of PUSSY would sue over HP? You sue for the most EXTREME cases such as a faulty addition built on your home and it falls in and injures or kills a family member, you sue if your car gets new brakes and they forget to hook up the lines and you hit a bus filled with 8 year old girls.................you don't sue over HP.............

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 13:29
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).



You guys are really strange. You realize that battery management systems on hybrids are such that they will never allow you to run critically low on power right? It's bad for battery life to discharge it too deeply. In the "window" of battery level depletion that the car allows, power output remains fairly steady.

Midi_Amp
Profile for Midi_Amp
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 22:32
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
WongKN wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
dezoris wrote:
Already been filed.
No joke.


It will be tossed out so fast the filer will be jailed for wasting the courts time.



Anyone has any way to confirm the existence of this lawsuit ?

A number of years ago, I was somewhat involved in a lawsuit a group of Singapore car owners tried to file against Mistubishi. Mistubishi launched their Lancer with a 1.6l DOHC MIVEC engine rated at 175hp, to compete with the EK4 Honda Civic SiR with the 170hp B16A DOHC VTEC engine. At that time, the idea of dyno-ing a car to check for power delivery was a novelty and the Dynojet was just appearing in ASEAN. The first unit was installed in AEROTECH, a Honda and supercar tuning specialists here in KL/PJ. Anyway, first a TOVA reader with a modified EK4 Civic SiR came over and dyno'ed his car. With a way above expected power rating, he went back and shared the results with friends, some of whom bought the Mitsubihsi Lancer because it's supposed to have 5hp more than the Civic SiR. So the next trip saw a group of Civic SiR and Lancer MIVEN owners drive up to Malaysia for a 'dyno-session'. To cut a long story short, the Civic SiRs all delivered their expected power at the Dynojet (~140+hp 'at the wheel's). The Lancer MIVECs OTOH caused a lot of heartbreaks because they delivered only around 110hp on the Dynojet, way below the Civic SiR which was supposed to have 5hp less power. A heavily modified Lancer MIVEC delivered 135hp and the owner was overjoyed until he learned that a completely stock Civic SiR delivers >140hp.

Anyway, the very dissapointed Lancer MIVEC owners went back to Singapore and there were a lot of heated debates and discusisons and eventually the decision was for a group of Lancer MIVEC owners/enthusiasts to file a lawsuit against Mitsubishi Singapore for misleading specifications. The idea was that the Dynojet test was supposed to be conclusive and compared with the Honda Civic SiR, it 'proves' the Lancer MIVEC do not have 175hp as claimed by Mitsubishi.

Mitsubishi's response to this was to publicly state that Dynojet measurements and their own internal measurement are different procedures and thus the two results cannot be directly compared. Also, the Dynojet results cannot be compared against other makes and conclusions drawn from the comparison are not valid. Lastly, that it was Mitsubishi's opinion that 110hp measured on a Dynojet is COMMENSURATE with 175hp rated at the engine crank.

After a lot more arguements to and fro, it turns out the lawsuit itself cannot be made to stick. There was no grounds for the lawsuit and it cannot be filed with any reasonable degree of confidence for winning. Eventually those Lancer MIVEC owners gave up. Those who can afford, quickly switched to other makes. Those who have to stick with their car, have no choice but to do so.

Based on this, assuming the level of sanity and common sense prevails in the US legal system, I would expect this lawsuit to be thrown out of the courts as well. Both power and EPA measurements are done under extremely strict laboratory control conditions. This condition does not really correlate to any real life condition. Furthermore, the EPA measurement is for a very specific driving pattern. While 'in theory' it is supposed to mimic the real life 'driving cycle', unless one can conclusively prove that any derived mileage figures were obtained in EXACTLY the same conditions as the EPA test, otherwise those mileage figures cannot be used a 'scientific proof' (so to speak). The issue with EPA and power measurement is that atmospheric conditions comes into play as so far, I do NOT know of anyonw who can control the weather.

BTW, Mitsubishi never sold the LANCER MIVEC again after that incidence. But they do sell the EVO.


Mazda had the same suit 5 years ago or so with the Miata. They offered a buy back or some sort of service thing, but they ADMITTED IT, which if that was the case with Honda or Mitsu, then you have a case. There arte TOO MANNY VARIABLES and it can not harm or put others in any sort of danger. There is no viable case except they misinformed the public and at 98 HP, I really don't think anyone believes that an Insight is supposed to be a race car. Any sensible Judge will look at this and BURN the filings on his bench and have the Lawyer and the Filer taken into custody for a good corn holing from BUBBA! LOL! To which they 100% deserve.

What kind of PUSSY would sue over HP? You sue for the most EXTREME cases such as a faulty addition built on your home and it falls in and injures or kills a family member, you sue if your car gets new brakes and they forget to hook up the lines and you hit a bus filled with 8 year old girls.................you don't sue over HP.............


What kind of pussy? The kind that would sue God... Wait! There's already is Nebraska State Sen. Ernie Chambers says the Almighty is responsible for "widespread death, destruction and terrorization."

That's what you get when people sues for the sake of suing, and not for the sake of facts or benefits to mankind. Fact is, Honda IMA system is able to boost/assist engine power. There will be instances where the IMA system might not be able to assist the engine and its given for the battery might be preserving energy (I don't have Insight, nor do I understand fully of the system). But suing for that instance is like suing EVERY auto company for not stating every possible circumstances that a car might not have its advertised power output... My Suzuki SX4 has 0 HP and 0 torque when it ran out of gas! What gives? I have to sue Suzuki for not telling me that the engine have 0 power when it ran out of gas. I can get rich from this, and I'm going to import MDX.

dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 15:58
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The lawsuit is simple, false/deceptive advertising.
You can't legally advertise static ratings on a system that is not designed around providing static power in real world driving conditions. Before you go off here is why:

This relates only to the IMA system.
1. Unlike a traditional car measuring power output in the IMA system is an exact science. Technicians can measure directly the electrical charge being sent to the electric motor.

The reason this lawsuit is being filed is because on the test vehicles the amount of power being sent to the electric motor is never constant. less than 20% of readings show full power output even on moderately charged battery systems.

2. IMA SOC is an estimation due to the battery pack design and charging system. It is impossible for the driver or the car to know the true state of charge of the battery pack hence the sporadic delivery of power.

3. Temperature changes greatly effect performance of the system. In freezing conditions the cars BCM generally over estimates the charge condition and restricts power output the electric motor.

The request is for a revised power rating, or disclaimer that power output of the IMA system is variable and not static and that SOC is an estimation.

For example: "Electric motor output can be up to 12HP or as little as 2HP based on SOC or environmental conditions."

Does this clarify?

clowny
Profile for clowny
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 17:39
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1. IMA measurement is NOT an exact science. When torque is specified, it usually includes the RPM range of 0-2000. My HCH II doesn't even have a tach, so who knows how much time I spend above 2000 RPM where I blelieve most of the torque is coming from the ICE. As for not putting out "full power", does that mean not putting out full power when "floored"? Over 40k miles, I have had my HCH "floored" about 5 seconds, and to the best of my recollection the IMA did it's part during those 5 seconds.... If the power management software (PMS) restricts motor output under varied throttle/charge situations, good for it (and me).
2. Any reasonable hybrid user knows that the PMS won't flog a largely discharged battery pack for long, time to take your rolling video game and find some charge...
3. Temperature is a brief effect as the batteries heat themselves pretty quickly... Do you really need more low end torque on cold, icy mornings?
How about "IMA output varies with SOC and driving conditions to achieve a mix of performance and economy, and all dash displays are approximate?" Or "Morons in mirror are closer than they appear", or "What do you call 200 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A darn good start."

clowny
Profile for clowny
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 18:12
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Other thoughts re "Technicians can measure directly the electrical charge being sent to the electric motor." By charge do you mean volts, or amps? If you measure amps, that varies with voltage and resistance, and resistance/impedance varies with the input from the ICE and terrain and load..... Volts fluctuate a bit inversely with amperage, depending again on the behavior of the ICE and terrain as it is "easier" to turn a motor that is being turned by ICE, or by transmission in engine braking, or during downhill terrain. Thirdly, IMA software determines whether output is maximum or minimal or in between... It is not just a big battery and a big switch that is on or off. Motor is rated simply but accurately by how it acts at specified voltage over specified RPM range... Other brand hybrids are rated same way, and for now, designed about the same way.
Linear hybrids like upcoming Volt are simpler to describe, but still subject to most of the vagaries above except for direct influence of ICE....


 
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