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  TOV Articles > TOVA : Honda CR-Z PowerTrain/Driving Dynamics > > Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe)

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P54
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More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-21-2010 22:52
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http://green.autoblog.com/2010/04/21/pics-aplenty-honda-releases-boatload-of-new-cr-z-shots-in-eu/
Insightman
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 00:09
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I learned something from that press release: I never knew there was a 1999 Insight. I thought my (January) 2000 Insight was the first model year for that car. Were the fewer than 20 cars delivered in 1999 registered as 1999 Insights? It was amazing how quickly Honda responded to the 1997 Prius, but...
danielgr
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 05:23
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Insightman wrote:
I learned something from that press release: I never knew there was a 1999 Insight. I thought my (January) 2000 Insight was the first model year for that car. Were the fewer than 20 cars delivered in 1999 registered as 1999 Insights? It was amazing how quickly Honda responded to the 1997 Prius, but...
They didn't "respond to the Prius"; it was a parallel development race at which Toyota ended first. It takes about 3 years to develop a car from a product (not technological) point of view; how may years do you think it took Honda and Toyota to research and develop their hybrid tech?; how long to get the Insight's aluminum body ready?

Insightman
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 10:36
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danielgr wrote:
how may years do you think it took Honda and Toyota to research and develop their hybrid tech?; how long to get the Insight's aluminum body ready?

Oh how I wish there was a book I could read about the development of the original Insight! What I've heard is that it was developed in record time, using much of the aluminum construction technology from the NSX (alongside which it was built).

The development of the Insight appears to have first seen the light of public disclosure with the JV-X concept car in 1997, the same year the first production Prius emerged, but rather than a complete new prototype, the JV-X was just the GRX concept car (see below) with the new IMA 3-cylinder engine replacing the 1.5-liter flat-six Gold Wing motorcycle engine.

The Honda VV concept car was essentially the Insight with different headlights. It first appeared at the auto show in nearby Detroit in January, 1999. I placed my order for the yet-to-be-named Insight the day after I saw the VV. The IMA hybrid system research might have begun long before the Prius, but I just never saw any evidence that the Insight itself was in development before the emergence of the Prius.









danielgr
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 11:11
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Insightman wrote:
[...]The IMA hybrid system research might have begun long before the Prius, but I just never saw any evidence that the Insight itself was in development before the emergence of the Prius.
You can take my word, or ask anyone working on the engineering department of any automaker. Even by nowadays standards, 3 years from start to production is consider to be "fast", and that's for cars that replace each other (a new gen XXX). The Insight was born in 1999, and that's 11 years ago.
I wish someone from Honda could tell you, but I'd be incredibly surprised if by the time the Prius reached the market (December 1997) the Insight development had to be way under way. That, or Honda put an army of sleepless people to work on it day and night (which I don't believe).

The fact is, the JV-X presented in October at Tokyo Motorshow was already the Insight, if not yet in production form.

Insightman
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 15:32
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danielgr wrote:
[...]That, or Honda put an army of sleepless people to work on it day and night (which I don't believe).


danielgr, I respect your thorough knowledge of the automobile industry in general and of Honda specifically so much that I'll concede that perhaps what I heard about the crash program to develop the Insight might be wrong. Certainly my daily experience with my Insight doesn't reveal any evidence of it being a hasty round-the-clock effort to get it out the door in a hurry. It's one of the best examples of Honda's well thought-out conception, design, and execution of a great car.

montechester
Profile for montechester
Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-22-2010 22:14
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danielgr wrote:
Insightman wrote:
[...]The IMA hybrid system research might have begun long before the Prius, but I just never saw any evidence that the Insight itself was in development before the emergence of the Prius.
You can take my word, or ask anyone working on the engineering department of any automaker. Even by nowadays standards, 3 years from start to production is consider to be "fast", and that's for cars that replace each other (a new gen XXX). The Insight was born in 1999, and that's 11 years ago.
I wish someone from Honda could tell you, but I'd be incredibly surprised if by the time the Prius reached the market (December 1997) the Insight development had to be way under way. That, or Honda put an army of sleepless people to work on it day and night (which I don't believe).

The fact is, the JV-X presented in October at Tokyo Motorshow was already the Insight, if not yet in production form.



Indeed, the original Insight was in the works many years before anyone knew about the 1st gen Prius. Obvously there were rumors, but it wasn't known who would get there first until right before the Prius made its debut in Japan.

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 14:36
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Insightman wrote:
danielgr wrote:
how may years do you think it took Honda and Toyota to research and develop their hybrid tech?; how long to get the Insight's aluminum body ready?

Oh how I wish there was a book I could read about the development of the original Insight! What I've heard is that it was developed in record time, using much of the aluminum construction technology from the NSX (alongside which it was built).

The development of the Insight appears to have first seen the light of public disclosure with the JV-X concept car in 1997, the same year the first production Prius emerged, but rather than a complete new prototype, the JV-X was just the GRX concept car (see below) with the new IMA 3-cylinder engine replacing the 1.5-liter flat-six Gold Wing motorcycle engine.

The Honda VV concept car was essentially the Insight with different headlights. It first appeared at the auto show in nearby Detroit in January, 1999. I placed my order for the yet-to-be-named Insight the day after I saw the VV. The IMA hybrid system research might have begun long before the Prius, but I just never saw any evidence that the Insight itself was in development before the emergence of the Prius.










All my sources at Honda tell me the Idea came in the early 90's and they started experimenting in 95. They developed a prototype in 1997 in just engine and trans form. The Idea for a manual was pushed through for the MPG, but Honda insiders wanted the lesser MPG for the cleaner tailpipe emissions, but pressure from with in (engineering) for the most fuel efficient car in the world at 70mpg (but higher NOx) was very strong and they thought they would blow Toyota out of the water.

The body you are correct, ALL the technology came from what they learned on the NSX, the use of Titanium, plastics and recycled plastic bottles for the seat material was STATE OF THE ART not to mention the electric power steering, the dash board's electronics and the PCU's. It was TRULY one of the most advanced cars ever produced.

Where they failed was Marketing and the lack of more passenger space. I sold the very first Ohio Insight, It was delivered to our dealer in December of 1999 (a 2000 BTW). I took the order 10 months before as you did, the customer saw the concept at the Detroit show. I knew all about the car WAY before any dealer even knew they were even getting them let alone Honda was coming out with it. The customer kept calling dealers around Cleveland until he called me, the manager gave him my name, I was able to speak his language and he placed his order. I called my friend at Honda and said I took an order for the up coming hybrid, he was shocked. When Honda announced the production, I got the call I would get the 1st one for Ohio, one of the 1st 5 delivered in the country. The 1st 2 weeks of Dec 1999 is when the customer took delivery my records show. The customer is still driving it and he is still getting over 60mpg. We did replace the battery pack last year, but inner workings of the pack went, not the pack it's self.

I really don't know what anyone is talking about a 1999 model year Insight, they were ALL 2000's according to my information.

danielgr
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 16:11
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
[...]I really don't know what anyone is talking about a 1999 model year Insight, they were ALL 2000's according to my information.
Appart from the always funny "model year" stuff in the US (which brings you cars made in the future...), the original Insight reached Japanese dealers on the 1st November 1999, and that's what people talk about :)

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 16:52
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danielgr wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
[...]I really don't know what anyone is talking about a 1999 model year Insight, they were ALL 2000's according to my information.
Appart from the always funny "model year" stuff in the US (which brings you cars made in the future...), the original Insight reached Japanese dealers on the 1st November 1999, and that's what people talk about :)


WOW! That is a great piece. I have the original Insight press pack sent to dealers with all the Tech info and pics AND I have the S2000 press pack with the card you open up, push the start button and it sounds like an S2000 starting and driving away. I wonder how much that would sell for on ebay?

CR-V9
Profile for CR-V9
Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 19:36
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Insightman wrote:
I learned something from that press release: I never knew there was a 1999 Insight. I thought my (January) 2000 Insight was the first model year for that car. Were the fewer than 20 cars delivered in 1999 registered as 1999 Insights? It was amazing how quickly Honda responded to the 1997 Prius, but...

I don't know but according to this...
Mr.Yamamoto and Mr.Fujimura were given the assignment of the next generation engine+motor project in 1995, directly from the CEO, Mr.Kawamoto. It was his pet project.
During the development, and arguments of what kind of hybrid it would be, in March 1997 they happen to find out that TOYOTA had out done them with the Prius.

It said that they had a hard time getting help from other engineers not as usual. The engineers were used to the ideas of "They believe what they can see moving.". They can't see the electrocity. Yamamoto and Fujimura claimed that the engineers tented to be scrared away when they were asked about the hybrid.
The first Insigt debuted in Novenber 1999.

"Well, my kids said that cars are enviromental. We used to say it's cool or fast. It was something like that...." muttered Yamamoto with a beer in his hand at a Yakitori place. Fujimura responded, "That's fine. Enviroment or speed, it's important that we still have the romans with cars."


WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 22:03
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
...Where they failed was Marketing ...


Why does that not surprise me..... common story (of Honda's life.... )


The 1st 2 weeks of Dec 1999 is when the customer took delivery my records show. The customer is still driving it and he is still getting over 60mpg. We did replace the battery pack last year, but inner workings of the pack went, not the pack it's self.


This one is important info. HOW MUCH did it cost to replace the battery pack ? One of the biggest fears for anyone buying a hybrid over here is simply that Honda markets it like it is some fancy futuristic rare engineered car. This puts a lot of fear into the more non-technical buyers, despite their desire to get into hybrids. One of the most asked question was 'what happens when the battery dies' (thanks to the handphone, EVERYONE knows a rechargeable battery dies and how it dies) and of course anti-Honda people have a field day posting fake stories about how 'their friend' paid RM20k for e.g. for a new battery.

So, how much ?

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-25-2010 23:23
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WongKN wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
...Where they failed was Marketing ...


Why does that not surprise me..... common story (of Honda's life.... )


The 1st 2 weeks of Dec 1999 is when the customer took delivery my records show. The customer is still driving it and he is still getting over 60mpg. We did replace the battery pack last year, but inner workings of the pack went, not the pack it's self.


This one is important info. HOW MUCH did it cost to replace the battery pack ? One of the biggest fears for anyone buying a hybrid over here is simply that Honda markets it like it is some fancy futuristic rare engineered car. This puts a lot of fear into the more non-technical buyers, despite their desire to get into hybrids. One of the most asked question was 'what happens when the battery dies' (thanks to the handphone, EVERYONE knows a rechargeable battery dies and how it dies) and of course anti-Honda people have a field day posting fake stories about how 'their friend' paid RM20k for e.g. for a new battery.

So, how much ?


zero, nada, zilch, nothing, not a cent, FREE!

2000 and 2001 have a battery warranty of 10 years and 157,500 miles...........weird number isn't it? I was told the cost is around $2,500 plus install of around $1,200 to $1,800, but how much for an engine & Trans? About $3,500 in the nest.

I just spoke to my 1st Insight customer today, he always tells me how great the engine is in his Insight. He is going on 11 years this Dec. with a new pack. He is coming to my Plug In Prius ride & Drive on Fri and bringing a few other Insight drivers to check out my PHEV. He is waiting for my Conversion to get approved so he can turn in the Insight in on a Plug In Prius. I will take his Insight and yank the motor, trans & Old NiMH pack and replace everything with Lithium Ion Ph. batteries and make it an Electric Insight with a 120 mile range at 85mph top speed. I bet we can pack it with a 20kWh pack. The batteries we use are about 4X as powerful as NiMH so I can replace all the weight I took out with batteries & a Motor. The car is so light its perfect for an electric car.

Insightman
Profile for Insightman
Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 00:21
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CR-V9 wrote:
...in March 1997 they happen to find out that TOYOTA had out done them with the Prius.

I'm so glad to learn so much about the origins of the Insight! Thanks to all of you! As far as marketing the Insight, the Honda bean counters may have been the problem. I read that Honda could never make a profit selling the aluminum Insight Classic in the US for $20K, so I assumed that the actual purpose for the car was to put Honda above the Prius on top of the EPA mileage chart and to get early adopters to prove the IMA system before going into mass-production with the Civic hybrid.


Now I have to march down to my dealer and find out why placing my order on the second day of the auto show didn't get me an Insight in 1999. Clearly he's just no match for Honda AFVM.



WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 06:49
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
....
I just spoke to my 1st Insight customer today,.... He is waiting for my Conversion to get approved so he can turn in the Insight in on a Plug In Prius....


WHAT ? How can you do this ??!!!!

(just joking)...

Insightman
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 21:50
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
I will take his Insight and yank the motor, trans & Old NiMH pack and replace everything with Lithium Ion Ph. batteries and make it an Electric Insight with a 120 mile range at 85mph top speed. I bet we can pack it with a 20kWh pack.


Honda AFVM, before the heat of that powerful battery pack starts softening the aluminum and the number plate melts away, I'm curious, could you tell me the serial number of this first Insight in Ohio? Thanks! I look forward to hearing more about your conversion, especially the final weight and performance figures.


HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2010 12:08
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
I will take his Insight and yank the motor, trans & Old NiMH pack and replace everything with Lithium Ion Ph. batteries and make it an Electric Insight with a 120 mile range at 85mph top speed. I bet we can pack it with a 20kWh pack.


Honda AFVM, before the heat of that powerful battery pack starts softening the aluminum and the number plate melts away, I'm curious, could you tell me the serial number of this first Insight in Ohio? Thanks! I look forward to hearing more about your conversion, especially the final weight and performance figures.



The last 6 of the VIN are 000118. According to my friend at Honda, It was shipped to us before others. Even tho it is the 118th manual car, it came a week early and no other dealer in my area ever saw one. It amazed me that at that time local dealers STILL didn't know or care what it was. Our service department is open until 3am, I had the driver call when he was on his way. We contacted the transport company to keep track of it and to pass the message for the driver to call when in route and give me an ETA. It got in around 10:30 on a week night, I waited for it and watched them PDI it. Everyone in service, including customers were just shocked at the car and it's figures. My techs were fighting on who would PDI it.

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2010 12:13
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
I will take his Insight and yank the motor, trans & Old NiMH pack and replace everything with Lithium Ion Ph. batteries and make it an Electric Insight with a 120 mile range at 85mph top speed. I bet we can pack it with a 20kWh pack.


Honda AFVM, before the heat of that powerful battery pack starts softening the aluminum and the number plate melts away, I'm curious, could you tell me the serial number of this first Insight in Ohio? Thanks! I look forward to hearing more about your conversion, especially the final weight and performance figures.



I have the original dealer Press pack with the Video, slides, sketches. It's really cool, what part of the country are you in? Are you close to Cleveland? If you haven't seen this packet, you would love it, it's really cool. Only a few of us NUTS would love stuff like this, most of them I am sure were thrown away or sitting in an office desk somewhere. I never watched the video, I am now wondering what is on it.

Insightman
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-29-2010 08:43
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HONDA AFVM wrote:
I have the original dealer Press pack with the Video, slides, sketches. It's really cool, what part of the country are you in? Are you close to Cleveland? If you haven't seen this packet, you would love it, it's really cool. Only a few of us NUTS would love stuff like this, most of them I am sure were thrown away or sitting in an office desk somewhere. I never watched the video, I am now wondering what is on it.


Honda AFVM, I AM nuts! But I'm sad you've forgotten my standing offer to take you out to Zingerman's when you're in Ann Arbor, where I live. The offer still stands. Please email me, John@[my TOV handle].com. I purchased that press pack and the dealer pack on eBay in 1999 and I watched the video again as recently as 3 months ago.

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-02-2010 23:01
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Insightman wrote:
HONDA AFVM wrote:
I have the original dealer Press pack with the Video, slides, sketches. It's really cool, what part of the country are you in? Are you close to Cleveland? If you haven't seen this packet, you would love it, it's really cool. Only a few of us NUTS would love stuff like this, most of them I am sure were thrown away or sitting in an office desk somewhere. I never watched the video, I am now wondering what is on it.


Honda AFVM, I AM nuts! But I'm sad you've forgotten my standing offer to take you out to Zingerman's when you're in Ann Arbor, where I live. The offer still stands. Please email me, John@[my TOV handle].com. I purchased that press pack and the dealer pack on eBay in 1999 and I watched the video again as recently as 3 months ago.


I will take you up on that offer. What is on the video, I don't have a VCR anywhere and haven't for at least 6 years. I have no idea why I never watched it??

Is Ann Arbor having the Alternative fuel vehicle car show this year? I was there 2 years ago. I will come this year with our PHEV Prius. Also, who would be interested in the 1st Insight delivered in Ohio? He is going to trad it for a Prius.........Honda needs to CHANGE their hybrid system. IMA for performance boost 1st, Fuel Economy 2nd and for TOTAL Fuel Economy, a 2 mode system like Toyota. JMO..........

I am in Columbus for the next 3 days at the "Moving Ahead 2010" event put on by Clean Fuels of Ohio. John Mandel is going to speak. I brought my GX.................for the ride & drive, I will post a story in General talk with pictures. There will be an OEM PHEV Prius along with an A123 conversion.

There is some cool stuff here, but the main focus of mine is to promote CNG infrastructure and it's nice I am down here with Honda American Manufacturing (HAM) and they have my back with support and giving me the political doors to people I wouldn't have as just a sales person. That will be HUGE for my future in what I need to get done to get CNG refueling like you have in Ann Arbor. You are SO LUCKY!

Did ebay exist in 1999?????? How much did you pay? I have the S2000 one too...........I could never sell them, they are VERY RARE! The S2000 one also had the Insight in it in relation to being built in the same plant. If not mistaken the Insight has the same steering wheel as the S2k????????
jero
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-09-2010 21:40
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AFVM... I also had a S2000 broschure that opened up to a + sign and had the engine start button with the sound chip. I got it in the mail after signing up at the Chicago auto show after seeing the SSM concept.

I sold it on ebay for ~$60 several years ago.

HONDA AFVM
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Re: More of the same plus lots of pictures(Europe) [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-11-2010 14:30
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jero wrote:
AFVM... I also had a S2000 broschure that opened up to a + sign and had the engine start button with the sound chip. I got it in the mail after signing up at the Chicago auto show after seeing the SSM concept.

I sold it on ebay for ~$60 several years ago.


Thats cool, I don't know if I would ever sell the kits I have, they are real cool. This kit I have for both the Insight and S2000 are big folders with actual slides, pictures 11x8 and specs.


 
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