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  TOV Articles > TOVA : Honda CR-Z PowerTrain/Driving Dynamics > > Re: Class Action

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dezoris
Profile for dezoris
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 20:32
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clowny wrote: Or "Morons in mirror are closer than they appear", or "What do you call 200 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A darn good start."



All your points are valid, and I understand, the IMA system is not an exact science but the power sent to the electric motor is.

The end result is as complicated as the IMA system itself and which is why it is impossible to advertise static horsepower and TQ from the electric motor, because it is constantly variable.

This is what the entire issue is about the way they present the numbers to the customer.


WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-26-2010 22:36
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Forgive me for saying this and I really don't intend to offend anyone. But it seems to me that there must surely be a lot of infinitely BETTER ways for your lawyers to spend their time. How about doing some charity work for a start. I am sure even in a very developed country like the U.S. there are lots of mistreated people who can use a good lawyer to help them get justice. Spending time in something as trivial as this, I apologise for saying it but it's truly sad.
Blue_Sky_surfer
Profile for Blue_Sky_surfer
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2010 02:32
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1. I think nowadays in the U.S., the max. combined power advertised are regulated by SAE J1349, which doesn't leave a lot of leeway for automakers to maneuver.

2. Regarding the Mazda Miata:
Mazda said it overstated the horsepower of the 2001 model, which began sales in September, by about 8 percent. The engine, which was expected to generate 155 horsepower, wasn't revalidated in final testing, Mazda said.


Mazda said there're less horsepower because of compliance with California emission requirement.

3. There're other cases:
Hyundai says it's been misleading consumers about the horsepower of its cars since 1992. Hyundai says the misstatements weren't intentional and blames "mistakes and disorganization" within the company.

Kia, meanwhile, says it also overstated the horsepower of its 2001 and 2002-model year Kia Optima mid-sized sedans, which use engines supplied by Hyundai, its parent company.

Hyundai Motor America Inc. President and CEO Finbarr O'Neill said that while most of the miscalculations fall inside accepted industry margins of error -- plus-or-minus 4 percent.

The miscalculations affected about 1.3 million cars, of which 400,000 were misstated by more than 4 percent. The company estimates that the average misstatement among all 1.3 million vehicles was 4.6 horsepower.

The largest discrepancies include the 2001 and 2002 Santa Fe sport-utility, whose 2.4-liter engine produces 138 horsepower, 11 fewer than the 149 Hyundai claimed. Some models of the Sonata and XG300 sedans and the Tiburon sports coupe were also revealed to have double-digit discrepancies.

"As you may know, horsepower is not a major reason for buying Hyundai vehicles," O'Neill said.

Hyundai says the misstatements resulted because the actual horsepower figures changed between the time the vehicles were first tested and the time they actually went on sale. In some cases, he said, emission controls reduced the horsepower levels but the changes were not properly communicated within the company.

The errors were discovered when the Canadian government questioned the horsepower on the Elantra. Hyundai advertised the car as having 140 horsepower but after the Canadian inquiry it said tests showed the figure was actually 135.

Other manufacturers have had similar problems. Ford had to recall and repair an entire year's production of its SVT Mustang Cobra when its 1999 models fell well short of the 320 horsepower Ford had advertised.

HONDA AFVM
Profile for HONDA AFVM
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2010 11:55
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Blue_Sky_surfer wrote:
1. I think nowadays in the U.S., the max. combined power advertised are regulated by SAE J1349, which doesn't leave a lot of leeway for automakers to maneuver.

2. Regarding the Mazda Miata:
Mazda said it overstated the horsepower of the 2001 model, which began sales in September, by about 8 percent. The engine, which was expected to generate 155 horsepower, wasn't revalidated in final testing, Mazda said.


Mazda said there're less horsepower because of compliance with California emission requirement.

3. There're other cases:
Hyundai says it's been misleading consumers about the horsepower of its cars since 1992. Hyundai says the misstatements weren't intentional and blames "mistakes and disorganization" within the company.

Kia, meanwhile, says it also overstated the horsepower of its 2001 and 2002-model year Kia Optima mid-sized sedans, which use engines supplied by Hyundai, its parent company.

Hyundai Motor America Inc. President and CEO Finbarr O'Neill said that while most of the miscalculations fall inside accepted industry margins of error -- plus-or-minus 4 percent.

The miscalculations affected about 1.3 million cars, of which 400,000 were misstated by more than 4 percent. The company estimates that the average misstatement among all 1.3 million vehicles was 4.6 horsepower.

The largest discrepancies include the 2001 and 2002 Santa Fe sport-utility, whose 2.4-liter engine produces 138 horsepower, 11 fewer than the 149 Hyundai claimed. Some models of the Sonata and XG300 sedans and the Tiburon sports coupe were also revealed to have double-digit discrepancies.

"As you may know, horsepower is not a major reason for buying Hyundai vehicles," O'Neill said.

Hyundai says the misstatements resulted because the actual horsepower figures changed between the time the vehicles were first tested and the time they actually went on sale. In some cases, he said, emission controls reduced the horsepower levels but the changes were not properly communicated within the company.

The errors were discovered when the Canadian government questioned the horsepower on the Elantra. Hyundai advertised the car as having 140 horsepower but after the Canadian inquiry it said tests showed the figure was actually 135.

Other manufacturers have had similar problems. Ford had to recall and repair an entire year's production of its SVT Mustang Cobra when its 1999 models fell well short of the 320 horsepower Ford had advertised.


WOW! You know your shit..........I respect you! Good Info.

clowny
Profile for clowny
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-27-2010 14:47
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I have been down this road on other forums, but forget the answer. Are current SAE HP ratings done at the drive wheels or closer in? Are hybrids measured the same way? I tried to see the procedure, but not being a member of the SAE they wouldn't let me in...
Alex_Bog_16v
Profile for Alex_Bog_16v
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 01:42
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danielgr wrote:
Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).

You anti-hybrid guys are so funny...
1st) Who on earth drives an Insight like a maniac? If you drive like a maniac, you wouldn't buy an Hybrid to begin with. If your question is "are hybrids adequate cars for maniacs", the answer is "no", so what?

2nd) For most people, hard accelerations never last for long, and are usually followed by braking or constant speed cruise (both of which will charge your battery to get ready for the next acceleration), because there are not many infinite roads with no speed limits, save some parts of germany. And yes, if you are planing to get a car to floor it everyday on the autobahn (like many Germans do), stay away from the hybrids, because you won't get much out of them. Now, again, if you are buying a hybrid you should be concerned about the environment and fuel efficiency, and if you are you wouldn't travel across Germany at 200+ kmph.

3rd) Really, if you are dumb enough not to understand that an electric motor doesn't work with no battery charge, and that you may run out of juice if you use it all the time without charging it, it's really your problem. Automakers clearly specify gas-engine power on every spec-sheet on any country, so you should perfectly know what you have under the bonnet.

4th) You will never be able to drive any non-CVT car at max power for more than a few miliseconds, yet you don't care, and automakers don't care (and I don't care). The fact is, no automaker tells you "you can drive at the rated max power", they tell you "the maximum power of this machine is XXX kW", and then you use your brain to figure the rest (f you'd like to).


Really people, get a life, or get an hybrid and see for yourself. For people buying those (which aren't the people that would buy a TypeR to burn the asphalt), they do a beautiful job, providing assist when you need power, charge when you don't need power, and reducing your overall emissions and fuel use (which happens to be the main point of the hybrid tech, and the reason why people buy them).




First of all, thank you, sir, for falling into my trap. You just proved me that one can be, and now I'm quoting you as you elegantly put it, "dumb enough" to see the connection "hybrid" and "Sport mode" as the Insight and not the CRZ. Looks like most people do need more "dumb" info to make some decent logical connections and be aware of some tech real specs.
Second, when they'll kill the Type R program as we know it (it's not a question of 'if', it's only 'when', and strong sources state the next gen Civic as the 'milestone' for this) and replace it with some other sporty hybrid, should I suppose to restrain myself when I feel the 'munchies' to drive it like I stole it? And when I do that, what happens to max power as the battery heavily runs out of juice (for ex, have you seen the lap battle between Insight and Prius, and if yes, did you saw what happened to the Prius when the battery was depleted?). Perhaps you, sir, will think of me and others like me as idiots, as Honda tries to save the rain forest but we are stuck in a past when Honda did offer some true enthusiast products. You keep saying "most people" do this and that. Well, for your information, people are not sheep, people are different in many ways and people have different ways of driving and enjoying their rides. If Honda wants to treat its customers as sheep, by totally ignoring different other segments of clients and making cars mostly for the brainwashed and road zombies, it's their course of action, but this will not follow the company's philosophy.
Third, I do appreciate a good efficient hybrid and I am willing to spend my money on a green car that gives me the "green satisfaction" I expect. For starters, Volt/Ampera will do just fine, since hydrogen is still far from being mass produced in an efficient way. Sadly, IMA has a low expectation/satisfaction ratio (I test drove HCH and Insight) and forgive me for not showing any joy or hope when seeing Honda's new way of 'advancement': smaller, lighter, cheaper but less powerful and barely any efficient. If it were 'smaller, lighter, cheaper, more powerful and much more efficient', I would have said "very well done, Honda" and would have been more willingly to put the past behind. Until then, please accept my doubts as a simple different opinion for the sake of argument and please restrain yourself from insulting people that do not share your optimism (like calling them dumb and such). Thank you so much.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 03:04
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clowny wrote:
I have been down this road on other forums, but forget the answer. Are current SAE HP ratings done at the drive wheels or closer in? Are hybrids measured the same way? I tried to see the procedure, but not being a member of the SAE they wouldn't let me in...


At the crank.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 03:07
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dezoris wrote:
The lawsuit is simple, false/deceptive advertising.
You can't legally advertise static ratings on a system that is not designed around providing static power in real world driving conditions. Before you go off here is why:

This relates only to the IMA system.
1. Unlike a traditional car measuring power output in the IMA system is an exact science. Technicians can measure directly the electrical charge being sent to the electric motor.

The reason this lawsuit is being filed is because on the test vehicles the amount of power being sent to the electric motor is never constant. less than 20% of readings show full power output even on moderately charged battery systems.

2. IMA SOC is an estimation due to the battery pack design and charging system. It is impossible for the driver or the car to know the true state of charge of the battery pack hence the sporadic delivery of power.

3. Temperature changes greatly effect performance of the system. In freezing conditions the cars BCM generally over estimates the charge condition and restricts power output the electric motor.

The request is for a revised power rating, or disclaimer that power output of the IMA system is variable and not static and that SOC is an estimation.

For example: "Electric motor output can be up to 12HP or as little as 2HP based on SOC or environmental conditions."

Does this clarify?



The charge that is being sent to the motor varies because it's a 3-phase DC motor (IIRC). You CAN'T have a constant level of power being sent because of startup and rpm characteristics of such motors!

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 03:07
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dezoris wrote:
clowny wrote: Or "Morons in mirror are closer than they appear", or "What do you call 200 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean? A darn good start."



All your points are valid, and I understand, the IMA system is not an exact science but the power sent to the electric motor is.

The end result is as complicated as the IMA system itself and which is why it is impossible to advertise static horsepower and TQ from the electric motor, because it is constantly variable.

This is what the entire issue is about the way they present the numbers to the customer.




That's a senseless case then! You realize that any regular ICE engine will only output its maximum horsepower and torque rating ONCE in its whole rev range, and even then its variable depending on something as simple as altitude above sea level? Are you going to find people who live in mountainous regions and get them to sue manufacturers because their cars don't output OEM specified power at their altitude?

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 03:16
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
danielgr wrote:
Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
If you have about 20% of your gas left, you just need to WOT it to its peak rev and you get instant max power with no problem.
If you have about 20% of electric juice left in your battery, you're sure as hell not going to squeeze max power from the IMA, no matter how much you WOT it (hell, I don't think you can get enough juice with this level of power even to start your AC while your car is stopped).
So, yes, unless they specify "IMA max power of 14 hp at 100% charged battery", it can be misleading. And I don't even want to get in a situation where I put the car on sport mode and drive it like a maniac for 5-6 minutes at max rev...zero extra IMA hp, lots of extra battery weight...wonderful! (unless they put the sport mode in there just to get a bumpier ride and a 'sharper' steering - sharper for 20% throttle and 25 mph greed tacho 'sporty' driving, that is).

You anti-hybrid guys are so funny...
1st) Who on earth drives an Insight like a maniac? If you drive like a maniac, you wouldn't buy an Hybrid to begin with. If your question is "are hybrids adequate cars for maniacs", the answer is "no", so what?

2nd) For most people, hard accelerations never last for long, and are usually followed by braking or constant speed cruise (both of which will charge your battery to get ready for the next acceleration), because there are not many infinite roads with no speed limits, save some parts of germany. And yes, if you are planing to get a car to floor it everyday on the autobahn (like many Germans do), stay away from the hybrids, because you won't get much out of them. Now, again, if you are buying a hybrid you should be concerned about the environment and fuel efficiency, and if you are you wouldn't travel across Germany at 200+ kmph.

3rd) Really, if you are dumb enough not to understand that an electric motor doesn't work with no battery charge, and that you may run out of juice if you use it all the time without charging it, it's really your problem. Automakers clearly specify gas-engine power on every spec-sheet on any country, so you should perfectly know what you have under the bonnet.

4th) You will never be able to drive any non-CVT car at max power for more than a few miliseconds, yet you don't care, and automakers don't care (and I don't care). The fact is, no automaker tells you "you can drive at the rated max power", they tell you "the maximum power of this machine is XXX kW", and then you use your brain to figure the rest (f you'd like to).


Really people, get a life, or get an hybrid and see for yourself. For people buying those (which aren't the people that would buy a TypeR to burn the asphalt), they do a beautiful job, providing assist when you need power, charge when you don't need power, and reducing your overall emissions and fuel use (which happens to be the main point of the hybrid tech, and the reason why people buy them).




First of all, thank you, sir, for falling into my trap. You just proved me that one can be, and now I'm quoting you as you elegantly put it, "dumb enough" to see the connection "hybrid" and "Sport mode" as the Insight and not the CRZ. Looks like most people do need more "dumb" info to make some decent logical connections and be aware of some tech real specs.
Second, when they'll kill the Type R program as we know it (it's not a question of 'if', it's only 'when', and strong sources state the next gen Civic as the 'milestone' for this) and replace it with some other sporty hybrid, should I suppose to restrain myself when I feel the 'munchies' to drive it like I stole it? And when I do that, what happens to max power as the battery heavily runs out of juice (for ex, have you seen the lap battle between Insight and Prius, and if yes, did you saw what happened to the Prius when the battery was depleted?). Perhaps you, sir, will think of me and others like me as idiots, as Honda tries to save the rain forest but we are stuck in a past when Honda did offer some true enthusiast products. You keep saying "most people" do this and that. Well, for your information, people are not sheep, people are different in many ways and people have different ways of driving and enjoying their rides. If Honda wants to treat its customers as sheep, by totally ignoring different other segments of clients and making cars mostly for the brainwashed and road zombies, it's their course of action, but this will not follow the company's philosophy.
Third, I do appreciate a good efficient hybrid and I am willing to spend my money on a green car that gives me the "green satisfaction" I expect. For starters, Volt/Ampera will do just fine, since hydrogen is still far from being mass produced in an efficient way. Sadly, IMA has a low expectation/satisfaction ratio (I test drove HCH and Insight) and forgive me for not showing any joy or hope when seeing Honda's new way of 'advancement': smaller, lighter, cheaper but less powerful and barely any efficient. If it were 'smaller, lighter, cheaper, more powerful and much more efficient', I would have said "very well done, Honda" and would have been more willingly to put the past behind. Until then, please accept my doubts as a simple different opinion for the sake of argument and please restrain yourself from insulting people that do not share your optimism (like calling them dumb and such). Thank you so much.



The volt? You mean the $40K overpriced family car?

What sort of argument are you trying to present here? You're bashing the fact that Honda is trying to position the CR-Z as a "sporty hybrid" and the death of Type-Rs, and yet you go on to list an extremely overpriced and certainly not built for driving dynamics family car for "green satisfaction"?

Alex_Bog_16v
Profile for Alex_Bog_16v
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 04:09
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CarPhreakD wrote:The volt? You mean the $40K overpriced family car?

What sort of argument are you trying to present here? You're bashing the fact that Honda is trying to position the CR-Z as a "sporty hybrid" and the death of Type-Rs, and yet you go on to list an extremely overpriced and certainly not built for driving dynamics family car for "green satisfaction"?


What is it with all you Honda worshipers that whenever someone comes with a criticism on Honda, it has to be automatically a "bashing"?
I'm not bashing, I want some action from Honda, one way or the other, I think I said that many times. What happens now it's not action, it's lingering without direction.
How do you know the price of a car that is due for release in november 2011? Ok, for the sake of argument, let's say it's top trim will hit the 40k ceiling. Do you know how much we have to pay in Europe for a top trim Prius? I'll give you a hint: about the same. Did this hurt its sales? Definitely not, as it tops its way cheaper Honda competitor 5 to 1 in sales.
People with 'green' preferences want true efficiency and can be difficult to fool in this matter, that's what Honda didn't understood. They are willing to pay a high price for it if it delivers the right expectations (I said high, not ridiculously high). Honda thought that, by slamming a cheap IMA into a car that looks hybrid and sell it as a 'hybrid for everyone', it will bring them the much expected sales. Wrong! People may be dumb, but not that dumb, you know.
I'll buy anything from Honda that performs in a true Honda way, even if its sports or hybrid. I appreciate both of these 'worlds'. My dream was to have a S2000 and an Insight 1 in my garage. They were once Honda's best. Now, S2000 is without successor and the Insight, according to Honda CEO Ito, is a fail (not that I thought otherwise).

A77
Profile for A77
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-28-2010 12:36
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I have achieved pretty good mileage with the Insight - typically 42 mpg on my routes which are hilly. In better conditions (ie flat) I have got as good as 56 US mpg. But this was really trying. Our test drive unit typically shows about 35 when I get in it.

You can see the limited ability of the IMA system on long inclines - of which I encounter many. There's the initial assist at the start of the incline but it soon dies away and the charge/assist gauge just sticks in the neutral position as the engine wheezes its way to the top of the hill. Its not very pleasant (some might say painful), but you get there. Point is all you have is the gas engine - it is working very hard, has nothing left to charge the battery, and it has to lug all the additional hardware. Doesnt help that this is at altitude too. Probably I live in a very hybrid hostile environment (occasional -30 winter temps don't help either). Perhaps explains why we can't sell any (even with the current $4000 off incentive) - so far anyway.

Canadian government ratings for the Insight are 47/52 US MPG equivalent. This is very hard to achieve for most people but I doubt worthy of class action.

I reckon at the end of the day the biggest advantage the hybrid system has is the auto stop facility. Just combine this with some sort of electric creep facility with a small electric motor powered solely by brake regen. Drive the rear wheels from the electric motor not the front and you have a free "prevent you getting stuck" 4wd system too. A single uprated battery under the hood would be enough. Just rambling.

owequitit
Profile for owequitit
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-29-2010 21:49
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I am not doubting the OP, as Americans really are that stupid, but there is some seriously important missing information here.

http://shdesigns.org/batts/battcyc.html

http://homepages.which.net/~paul.hills/Circuits/BatteryMonitor/BatteryMonitor.html

One of the major characteristics that is being neglected here are the realities of battery discharge curves.

There are many different batteries, for many different functions, for many different reasons.

People just assume that because a battery is at 20% of its maximum charge, that it is like a glass of water, and is thus only able to provide 20% of its power. Unfortunately, this is patently false.

Since Honda uses an Ni-MH battery, which is basically an improvement of the Ni-Cd battery, the discharge characteristics are quite distinct. Since they have low internal resistance, NiMh batteries provide almost constant voltage, until they are very low on charge. Similar to a NiCd battery, which anyone with an older RC car should be familiar with, they go go go, and then they die very rapidly, and all at once. Similar characteristics apply with NiMh, as evidenced by the graph provided. Of course, if you don't like that graph, there is certainly plenty of other information available on battery discharge curves.

Anyway, what this means to the consumer is that the battery pack in the Insight/CR-Z will continue to provide very close to the maximum power level until the batteries are significantly depleted, possibly below the "20%" level. As such, the lawsuit is probably not very valid, as the batteries output would cause far less variability in performance when compared to say, atmospheric conditions on the IC engine, tire inflation, loaded weight, etc.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm

Since output is as simple as Power=Current * Voltage, and Voltage=Current * Resistance; a NiMh battery isn't going to see a drop in Current for a very long time, when they are extremely depleted, and have been run hard.

The other important fact that people are neglecting, is that "20%" does not really mean 20%. Honda's software has built in defenses to prevent complete battery depletion which could cause permanent damage to the cell, and as such, when they report a "20%" charge, it is actually 20% above and beyond their reserve limit. You will also commonly find this in laptop batteries, cell phones or any other device where it is beneficial to protect the battery from total depletion. My guess would be that those defenses start kicking in long before the battery gets significantly on the part of the voltage curve where it is tapering off rapidly toward depletion, and as such, that further builds a system that nearly always delivers very close to its total potential performance.

Just as an FYI, and somewhat similar to this situation, NiCd batteries are commonly used in aircraft due to their specific discharge charachteristics. In a situation such as a small turbine engine starting off the battery, it is CRITICAL that the battery is able to maintain full rated power for long enough to keep the engine spinning above the point where a hot start would occur. NiCd and NiMh batteries would be well suited to such a scenario, which is specifically why they are used in that scenario. Of course, this characteristic also works well in hybrids for much the same reason.

Usually, for the average consumer, they are going to have done a lot of accelerating by the time the battery is fully depleted to the point where it can no longer provide sufficient current to do its job. As such, it is unlikely, at least in my eyes that it is going to be super easy for them to PROVE that there is A) some sort of neglegence and mal-intent on Honda's part, and B) that it causes undue harm to a reasonable person.

There is a large difference between FILING a lawsuit, and actually WINNING a lawsuit. Besides, by their logic, they better sue Toyota, Ford, GM, Hyundai, Nissan, Tesla, Energizer, Duracell, Rayovac and all of the other battery manufacturers because it isn't like Honda is operating on a different set of principles or laws of physics. The other don't disclaim such things to the best of my knowlege, and the scientific premise of the case is already very questionable, and I am not even a battery expert.







WongKN
Profile for WongKN
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-30-2010 10:08
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Interesting info.

I am sorry but I continue to persist with my personal viewpoint. It's silly to sue over such a trivial thing. There must surely be a lot of much better ways to spend one's time. If one really can't think of anything, I would suggest doing charity would be nice. And surely a million times better than embarking on this endeavour.

Sorry, not meaning to offend anyone but sometimes things must be said.

P54
Profile for P54
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 04-30-2010 21:18
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WongKN wrote:
Interesting info.

I am sorry but I continue to persist with my personal viewpoint. It's silly to sue over such a trivial thing. There must surely be a lot of much better ways to spend one's time. If one really can't think of anything, I would suggest doing charity would be nice. And surely a million times better than embarking on this endeavour.

Sorry, not meaning to offend anyone but sometimes things must be said.



Agree with you WongKN. This is the double edged sword of American freedom. Long time ago on the east coast a city announced that a certain pest were not allowed in the city. That pest were lawyers. People in America sue for anything, and are awarded big money by the help of lawyers that of course get most of the money. A shame for America.

CarPhreakD
Profile for CarPhreakD
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-01-2010 02:18
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Alex_Bog_16v wrote:
CarPhreakD wrote:The volt? You mean the $40K overpriced family car?

What sort of argument are you trying to present here? You're bashing the fact that Honda is trying to position the CR-Z as a "sporty hybrid" and the death of Type-Rs, and yet you go on to list an extremely overpriced and certainly not built for driving dynamics family car for "green satisfaction"?


What is it with all you Honda worshipers that whenever someone comes with a criticism on Honda, it has to be automatically a "bashing"?
I'm not bashing, I want some action from Honda, one way or the other, I think I said that many times. What happens now it's not action, it's lingering without direction.
How do you know the price of a car that is due for release in november 2011? Ok, for the sake of argument, let's say it's top trim will hit the 40k ceiling. Do you know how much we have to pay in Europe for a top trim Prius? I'll give you a hint: about the same. Did this hurt its sales? Definitely not, as it tops its way cheaper Honda competitor 5 to 1 in sales.
People with 'green' preferences want true efficiency and can be difficult to fool in this matter, that's what Honda didn't understood. They are willing to pay a high price for it if it delivers the right expectations (I said high, not ridiculously high). Honda thought that, by slamming a cheap IMA into a car that looks hybrid and sell it as a 'hybrid for everyone', it will bring them the much expected sales. Wrong! People may be dumb, but not that dumb, you know.
I'll buy anything from Honda that performs in a true Honda way, even if its sports or hybrid. I appreciate both of these 'worlds'. My dream was to have a S2000 and an Insight 1 in my garage. They were once Honda's best. Now, S2000 is without successor and the Insight, according to Honda CEO Ito, is a fail (not that I thought otherwise).



The car is projected to be sold at that price:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/22/business/22volt.html?_r=1

By the way, the argument being presented here is in North American terms. The Prius starts at just under $23K, the Insight starts at under $20K. If the Insight is a failure, it's because it's not cheap enough (only about $3K difference) and does not match the Prius' fuel economy, no mistake.

But when you're bringing up the Volt, which costs nearly the same as owning BOTH a Prius and an Insight (or the same as owning two Insights), it's hard to take your argument seriously.

Again, what exactly are you trying to argue about? You are "criticizing" Honda's CR-Z and the death of the Type-R's, and yet you go on to list an extremely overpriced and certainly not sporty car as a metaphor for "green satisfaction"?

Atomic Frog
Profile for Atomic Frog
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-01-2010 02:18
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My gosh! You're right!
Come to think of it, I should file a class action against them for their gasoline engines too.

I drive it very responsibly up in the mountains, but I'm not getting the advertised horsepower, it's quite a bit less. They're screwing over all those people who live above sea level. Or live in hot climates. Or avoid WOT during normal driving. I drive very reasonably, especially when my mother-in-law is in the car and I sure don't get the max horsepower then either.

Lemme call my lawyer...

montechester
Profile for montechester
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-04-2010 23:40
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Atomic Frog wrote:
My gosh! You're right!
Come to think of it, I should file a class action against them for their gasoline engines too.

I drive it very responsibly up in the mountains, but I'm not getting the advertised horsepower, it's quite a bit less. They're screwing over all those people who live above sea level. Or live in hot climates. Or avoid WOT during normal driving. I drive very reasonably, especially when my mother-in-law is in the car and I sure don't get the max horsepower then either.

Lemme call my lawyer...



LMAO!!!... What I find even more entertaining is the number of people, including the OP, that claim to understand the physics of battery discharge and motor current draw well enough to argue with others that clearly know their stuff.

And then there are the Honda haters that pop in to say how Honda has "screwed" them and burst "their" dreams of owning the "perfect" Honda. To those folks I can only say, grow up and realize that Honda must first survive in order to provide "dream" cars to enthusiasts. And don't fool yourselves for one minute, Honda, like others, has been in a fight for its very existence as an independent auto maker. Mr Honda preached his desire for Honda to always remain sovereign, to "carry its own torch with its own hand". I think he'd approve of pulling back on non-core projects and expenditures in order to preserve the companys core products, its profits, and thereby, its future.

shingles
Profile for shingles
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-07-2010 15:32
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LOL, true Honda way... You want to talk about Honda's car roots, you do realize the true honda way was motorcycle powered tin cans right?! ?!?!?!?!?!

Seriously man, get a life or something... talk about misdirected anger. People like me respect Honda because of their engineering capabilities. And just because they aren't making super fast RWD sports sedan does not make me respect then less. They make AIRPLANES for crying out loud. They MAKE hydrogen fuel cells, and solar panels, and freaking ROBOTS!

The funny part (to me) is that you are SO narrow minded in you focus about Honda, that you are bashing those of us that support Honda. Honda IS building what people want... maybe not YOU specifically, but if they are SO bad at building what people want, how come they were still in the black when others where in the red?

Oh your cheap IMA comment... Honda's engineer set out to find a simple elegant solution to the MPG problem. SURE the Prius gets better MPG, but I'll be damned if the IMA isn't such a simple solution to the problem. Nope, it isn't from a technical perspective as great as the hybrid synergy drive from Toyota. But do you REALLY think Honda didn't try that and do you think Honda CAN'T do that?

Life isn't just about RWD sports sedans or super expensive sports cars that most cannot afford.

Blackzc
Profile for Blackzc
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-09-2010 16:39
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Hey guys, first post. Thought it was a good time to register...

dezoris is just about the most petty person ive seen on the internet. Really? A lawsuit? Batteries make less power with less of a charge and or in the cold? So it aint so!!

Would that be the same as a gas motor making more power on 50 degree night as opposed to a 95 degree summer day? OMG lies!! If by chance the lawsuit does get taken all it will do is make honda change the sticker, which then would be no more accurate than it is now. Would that make you happy dezoris? What a miserable person you are. Go away.



80honda
Profile for 80honda
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 05-10-2010 13:07
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OMFG,

So the class action lawyers are going to be polluting forums trying to drum up discontent about hybrids now.


The lawyers dreaming up this bullshit piss me off.

BigAtomicBlue
Profile for BigAtomicBlue
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-03-2010 12:32
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dezoris wrote:
The clock is ticking on a class action against Honda for misleading the public on power ratings for their IMA Hybrids.

Its nice to offer static power ratings on cars that make static horsepower and TQ. But when you have a system like this that only develops the advertised peak horse power in conditions where the battery is fully charged, it's false advertising to claim the numbers they do without disclaimer, which does not exist.

In all IMA Hondas the battery is rarely at full charge and when the IMA battery is lowered or the car is force charging, the electric motor never delivers the advertised power.


Fan Koni
Profile for Fan Koni
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 06-18-2010 13:19
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Have there been cases regarding Turbo-Diesel cars?

Because these are very dependent on air humidity.
It is very normal that a car easily loses 5% of top speed when raining.
From a performance perspective they never forgive a dirty airfilter and not so hi quality Diesel.

Also a cold diesel engine is utterly useless...

auto_enthu
Profile for auto_enthu
Re: Class Action [View Article]    (Score: 1, Normal) 08-31-2010 22:24
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dezoris,

Few cars on the road can really deliver power close to their max HP ratings.

Do you know that a G37 can barely deliver 300 HP (its engine is not really rev-happy) at its peak HP rpm, while its actually rated for 328 HP? This was mentioned in one of the G37 test drives in one of these MT or C&D reviews. But not many people care or even know. Some people blindly buy cars just thinking that they are getting X hp extra over its competitor, with absolutely no understanding how to judge the real performance.

Only some exceptional engines deliver the promised peak HP.

The point here is, you won't find many engines on the road which deliver the promised peak HP. That's a fact. If you have to sue an automaker on this, you'll likely have to sue every automaker out there.


 
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